From $0 to $15k in 3 Years: How To Build an SMMA The Right Way (Student Interview)

In this video, Keaton Walker interviews Matthew Freestone, who shares his authentic journey from nightclub promoter to successful digital marketing agency owner. Learn how he built a sustainable agency with 20+ clients in the home improvement niche, using innovative strategies like paid trial periods and seasonal optimization. Matthew reveals his unique approach to client acquisition and why taking the "slow burn" path led to greater success than the typical churn-and-burn model. Perfect for aspiring agency owners and digital marketers looking to build long-term client relationships.

Watch this episode on YouTube: https://youtu.be/tJ_FsBP6zN0

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Timestamps:

00:00-Overview    
00:24-Gateway to Digital Marketing    
07:13-GHL!    
09:01-"Actual" Free Trial    
13:11-Matt's Past Job    
20:35-Cold Outreach Tips    
24:24-Going Full time agency    
28:55-Gaining clients with a facebook post    
34:00-Branding    
37:42-Scaling the Agency    
41:02-Improving Sales Calls    
48:55-Spending on Coaching    
52:29-What's Next

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#smma #casestudy #successstory

Transcript

0:00

If I own the marketplace and I just put my links at the top, I'll probably outsell all of them. And that's kind of what happened. I hated the fact still selling my time for money. I was still a freelancer, right? I don't really feel like I know what I'm doing. I can't charge anyone when I have no confidence on the phone. I did your Facebook posts in the group method. So I think from that one post, I got like 200 friends. It does feel very rewarding. It's a nice thing to do when you feel like you're helping people get to the next level. How's it going, everybody? Welcome back to another episode. Super excited to be here with Matthew from London. We've had a couple chances to meet in person, which is great. We've worked together off and on over the last few years. And, um, he has built something really cool because not only does he have 20 plus clients and. An awesome niche, but he has built them in a way that's sustainable or they're coming to him. He's got a great reputation. He's not churning them like crazy. And he's just taking the slow burn approach that I really, really think a lot more agency owners should take. So I'm excited to dive into why you did that, Matthew, how you did it, and hopefully inspire some people. You know, to not churn and burn and build up to 50 K a month, churn all those clients in the next month and then become an agency coach. So, um, thanks for being on, man. Thanks very much for having me, man. Yeah. So let's start back at the very beginning. Um, how'd you get into digital marketing? Um bit of a weird one I was uh, I went to university in a place called manchester here in the uk and I kind of uh, I used to promote nightclubs. I know it's uh, it's not there's no career in that but like it got me into the social media space in terms of Using social media to, to sell more tickets for events. Um, and then I started like a marketplace, uh, like a Facebook group marketplace for buying and selling, um, sold out tickets. But then I kind of used my authority in that group to sell more tickets as well, but like for a long time, nobody even knew. I was running that. Um, and then I graduated, I worked for a couple of media agencies, um, mainly running like viral media campaigns. A lot of like, uh, what's called mid roll advertising. So we used to create and curate viral videos and I'm in it and you get hit by an ad and every time someone watched the ad, we'd get paid. That's pretty much how it works. So did that for a couple of years, worked with some big brands and. Learned a lot, but then I always wanted to start my own thing properly. Like the Facebook group was great, but it wasn't ever going to be a sustainable business because I don't know, it didn't have crazy, crazy numbers. And it also students are not exactly the most affluent of markets. So, um, yeah, I decided to start an agency. Um, so I literally put my notes in and was like, Going to start an agency. I had absolutely no idea what was happening, what I was doing. And within a few months COVID hit and I, I can't remember when we started talking to him, but I remember you moving to London during COVID. So we must've, I must've been, uh. start communicating during that time. And then when COVID hit, I was like, Oh my God, this is like the worst time to be starting this. And depending on the industry, it might be in some might not be in others, but yeah, I didn't know anything about sales. I didn't know anything about running a business really. Um, and I was like, as soon as that hit and I started seeing the impact it was having, I was like, I need to go get a job again. Like this is not going to work. This is not going to work. And like, I could see the money that I'd saved up during, during that time working, going down and I was just like, Oh my God, like I need to pay rent and stuff like this is going to be awful. So, um, I, I got a job for another media agency, um, which was like probably the best agency that I worked for during that time. Um, and learned a lot there. Um, and. I learned quite a lot about like how they were getting clients during that time and also just we we kind of created like a little side side bit of the agency that mainly worked with creators and I was I was uh, Put in charge of bringing some creators on board So I kind of learned cold, uh, cold email and that kind of stuff in order to bring people in. Um, So I did I think I was there like 10 months and then I was like I need to You know I need to give this another try. Right. And, uh, but I, I, I still wanted to make money on the side. Cause like, uh, a lot of agency guys, I guess when they start out, probably like 22, 23, uh, or, or younger, and they don't have as many sort of, Responsibilities and I had some a lot going on still so I kind of go I i've told you what I was doing before. I don't mind sharing it. So I used to run Um, I started freelancing working with a few brands and then kind of doing the agency a little bit on the side so I was like Doing brand new campaigns and then the free, what I call freelancing, I was mainly working with one client, which was, she owns like, uh, 12 million worth of mean pages on Instagram, which is really like in the, in the girly niche in America, despite the fact that I'm, uh, clearly a man living in London. Um, I quite enjoyed that challenge. Cause I could, I'd always taken like a very data driven approach to. to social media. Um, that kind of, I remember like asking my wife, like, what are kegels? I was like, I don't know what this is. I'm posting, posting, posting amoeba, but I was like, I have no idea what this means. Right. So like, it was always data driven. Um, and then, um, During that time, like I was doing all that stuff, but I still knew that like I hate, I hated the fact I was still selling my time for money. Like I was still, I was still a freelancer, right? Um, and I always had the agency on in the back of my mind. Like I want, I want to The way that I make money to be value based and it doesn't matter if I work two hours or 20 hours on account I get the same get the same amount of money as long as it's as long as it's working, right? So yeah, um, I kind of did it. So I have a ramble if a ramble cut off cut me off again, but um, I I kind of uh During that time, I, I kind of fell on the home improvement space and was like, all right, well, let me, let me try and learn how to run ads. Spend a bit of time like researching ads really heavily and paying a few people for a few hours of their time that were quite a few. Fair bit ahead of me that knew what they were doing and then I started doing outreach to people And my offer was um, I will pay my own money to run your ads for a month and if it goes well Um, you can carry on paying you can carry on paying me So it was kind of like a free I guess it's a free trial, but it's even more Hey guys, just jumping in here to give you a quick word on our sponsor, High Level, before we get back to the interview. If you don't know already, High Level is the top sales and marketing solution for any business, but particularly agency owners or anybody that needs a software product to resell to their existing customer base. It has everything you need to capture, nurture, and close leads for marketing clients. And the best part is, High Level believes in not taxing the agencies. on its platform so you can get unlimited clients for one low flat monthly fee. The best features include a CRM, funnel, website, and email builders, course hosting platform, robust marketing automation builder, a consolidated chat stream with WhatsApp, email, SMS, Instagram DMs and Facebook DMs, reputation management, social media, posting, tracking, and analytics, and so much more. And as if that wasn't enough, HighLevel is fully white labeled, meaning that you can take the platform and put your own brand on the desktop and mobile app and resell it to your industry for whatever price you want. Essentially what HighLevel has done is brought the bar for starting a software company way lower so normal people like you and I can Can help our clients with an amazingly robust software without paying hundreds of thousands of dollars in development costs. I am not kidding when I say hands down high level is my favorite software of all time. It has been integral to my success with my agency. It helped me increase my client's results and retention and I use it every single day for my own business. And if you sign up for high level today, not only will you get a 30 day free trial, which is not available on their website, but you will get all of the bonuses listed at it's keaton. com forward slash mastermind, which gets you support templates and courses to kickstart your high level journey and get those first few clients or scale to your next few clients. If you're already a high level customer, you can also get all of those bonuses by upgrading to the next highest plan underneath my link. Instructions for that are also at it's keaton. com forward slash mastermind actual free trial. Cause most paid, paid ad agencies. Like paid media or paid ads, it's not a free trial. It's a paid trial, but you don't pay for the labor. You just pay for the ads. Zuck is the only one that wins in that situation. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And I did that because one, I was, I had money from the freelancing, but I didn't have time. Like I didn't have time to be doing the level of, I was working like 30 hours a week for that lady and then some other campaigns. Right. So I was like, I want to make it as easy. Yes. To get people through the door. And also I was like, I don't have a clue what I, I don't really feel like I know what I'm doing. So like, I, I can't charge anyone when I have no Confluence on the phone.'cause yeah, it, it's kind of, it was a case that I knew if I got results and it worked, the next person I spoke to I'd be like, look, I did this. This is the amount of revenue they got out. And I wouldn't be like, I don't know, my voice would actually sound right because I actually believed in what I was selling. Yeah. Um, yeah, that's, that's kind of how it started. And then, yeah, I think I did it until I got, I did four of those as well, which I wouldn't recommend. Like if, if anyone's listening to this and thinking you have to pay everyone's ad spend, you don't need to do four of those trials, but, um, it was, and then I fell on the one right person who like. In the year after that, I can't remember the exact timescales. He did like half a million in revenue through me. And so I was like, okay. And that, that first four trials, like they've paid themselves back. So, so like that fourth one, um, he's now been with me for nearly two years. Right. But, um, it shouldn't take this, it shouldn't have taken me this long, but it was always a case that like, I, I was probably a bit scared to go all in. Right. And I think that's probably the case with many other people, but you did like something that stuck with me from the very beginning of my agency and entrepreneurial journey is create belief. Like, you have to create belief that this thing is going to work or else you're going to have. Self doubt is going to be chipping away your confidence so much that you'll, you'll never actually get to the point where the business is sustainable. And so for me, that was watching somebody else like firsthand, run a campaign. Cause you watch YouTube videos and you're like, yeah, this could be a complete BS. I don't know. Uh, but you watch someone like, I tried to run ads and then we hired someone and I watched another agency do it. And I was like, wow, This actually works. Like I saw the front desk be overwhelmed with leads and that's kind of the same thing you were looking to do. So there's, there are other ways, um, rather than paying for your client's ad spends 40 times over, uh, but it's so important. And that's, I think the moral of your story, at least so far is like, just, let's just create some belief and, um, Like make sure I feel actually comfortable with this. And, um, you feel like you can hold onto your integrity that entire time. And I think it's served you quite well. Would you agree? I would say the same sort of mindset of how I view things now is. Um, like I, I, I, I feel like I really care a lot more than I'm not, I'm not, uh, downplaying other agencies, but like, uh, I feel like I care about the results a lot more than a lot of other people. And like a lot of agencies are. The do churn clients say they view it like I'll just get three more for everyone that I lose and I can't just keep losing them all the time. But as long as I'm selling more than I'm bringing in, you don't get me wrong. You can make money doing that. Um, and you can have a wildly profitable agency. Um, but I I want to work with people long term and I, I, I still, to this day, when a client doesn't work out for a client, I hate those calls. Like I hate those calls because I'm just as sad about it as they are. Like, and I think that comes across. So yeah. Yeah. Very cool. Uh, so I want to touch on two things. The first one is I didn't realize your Facebook group was for selling nightclub tickets. Um, I thought it was just like Manchester students Facebook. Yeah, it kind of changed over time. Yeah. So it started as just, um, just the tickets. So it used to be called like Falafel, but Falafel is like a small area of Manchester. That's, that's, uh, all the students live and it used to be called Falafel buy, sell tickets. And, um, yeah, there was, it was mainly making money, like affiliate fees off of selling the tickets or you would buy a bunch and then resell them. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, um, I was like one of the biggest sellers for some of the, some of the big clubs. Um, and a lot of other people were kind of viewing it and, um, I guess they were going about it in a kind of door knocking and selling in the street and that kind of, that kind of stuff. Whereas I was like, well, if I can create, if I own the marketplace and I just put my links at the top, I'll probably outsell all of them. Um, and that's kind of what happened. So cool. Um, And then the jobs that you worked in, I think this is an underrated path to becoming an agency owner that some, you know, 18, 19, 20 year olds should be looking into potentially. Um, can you speak more to what they were, what was the first one? And then what was the second one? And then we talked about the meme page one, but just maybe talk about each of those jobs and what they taught you individually and how that ended up translating into. The agency today. Well, that is a thought provoking question. So the first one was more like a media agency. I had a social media marketing, uh, and production arm to it. Um, so it was called the hook. It's actually, it got, acquired, um, fairly soon after I left, but it had 15 million, um, followers on Facebook. And we would run, we would run campaigns for brands and then boost them through. Um, and they would get, some of them would get really good organic, uh, organic reach. And that's why these brands came to us because they, we had really good organic reach, but then some that was also paid that got added into that. Um, so. I would say it was probably like a much smaller, less well known Ladbib or Unilad. Like, uh, uh, they're making like college humor type content and they're, the brands are paying for that to be created on their platform because they have such big reach. Yeah. And, and, uh, a lot of it was the brand, a lot of it was based around like film culture. Uh, yeah. And they, they also did like production for, uh, after. Their own videos, like they would make original content. It was like comedy sketches and that kind of stuff. Um, after that did really well, then brands started approaching them to create content specifically for their own platforms. And would you say that taught you how to make like appealing ads or what just tell you about human nature and like what people like and like to share? Yeah, it taught me about human nature. Um, I would say that I'm, if, if when I create vids now, I, my eyes for thumbnails and stuff like that, it's just. because I've just posted far more content than anyone that I know. So I like, I just have so much data on what, what's, um, attractive to the eye. Um, and I think it will become my, my media background will become more valuable. Um, as I make my service delivery a little bit more video centered, because I don't feel like I've been utilizing the knowledge I have of videos and, and how to formulate videos that do well on these platforms as much as I should have, um, probably just because I've been keeping my service delivery. Quite simple. Um, and that's kind of by design. So it's easier to scale, but yeah, we'll see where things go. Not a bad thing at all. No. Cool. And then the second agency was something like helping YouTube creators get on Facebook, right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So we did it was um, It was with quite a few different people that i'd met along along the way but we the two of the owners of the agency they create like content for I don't know like chelsea football club kfc like, um Uh, big brand, it's not known in the US but's, a brand called Foot Asylum that's really well known for their, for their YouTube content here in the uk. Um, and, but they wanted to create a subset, uh, like a, um, a subsidiary agency that mainly concentrated on, um, on the creators and bring creators from YouTube to Facebook. So we, I was in charge of, um, helping bring on more creators, um, which is where I, as I said, I learned. More about email markets, like, um, cold outreach, um, and then managing a team of video editors in order to, in order to, um, adapt all of that content that they were creating elsewhere to the Facebook platform. Um, so some of them were youtubers, some of them were tick tockers. So the tick tockers we had to take. The what they were doing currently and transition that to long form, which is a harder, harder battle. But if you get it right, there's much bigger payouts on Facebook than there is on. Okay. Yeah, that's, that's something you taught me that Facebook has like a partner program similar to YouTube where they'll pay you for views. Yeah Big money, you know, right? Yeah. Yeah. Um to round out this section Of the podcast, what is like the biggest thing you could teach someone about hooks or, uh, thumbnails or just video in general and content like you've spent probably well over 10 hours studying, posting, looking at data, et cetera. What's like. The one or two biggest takeaways from that, uh, and then I have a follow up. I would say that people don't consume enough in their spaces to know how to make good content. Right. So I, I speak to some people in my space now, and they're like, but how do you make good videos? And I'm like, well, when I used to start create, cause I would sometimes get tasked with creating videos in verticals. I had no idea what I was doing. Like, uh, and the first thing that I would do is. Is look at all of the top videos in that space and then put them in a spreadsheet, create a new, and I would have a new Instagram account that would like, I would only like the videos from that space. So I train the algorithm to show me the best performing stuff. And then with all the video links, I would write descriptions of why I felt like it had done so well to hook people in. Um, and then I would reverse engineer from there. So it's just, you need to consume more to create better, right? On the cold outreach side, like you're reaching out to influencers. I tried this at one point and it is very, very easy to get ignored by people who are, they're getting 10, 20, 30, 40 cold outreach messages a day. Um, and you were standing out obviously with a great offer, which is like, we'll make you more money with very little work. Uh, on your end, but what, what was your biggest takeaway from those, from the cold, like cold outreach you did to people who are highly, highly in demand and what tips would you give someone? I think the way I had to personalize it a lot more than I, I would do for, uh, when I started doing it for, um, local businesses, just cause they do get more, they do get more messages. So I spoke to a few career friends of mine and they, and they said to me. Look, if I can tell when I open any, it's like the first battle is obviously getting opened and then the second battle I spoke to a friend of mine who's a magician and he was like, I get loads of these messages, but I got one recently from an agency and I could tell she'd actually Watch loads of my content, like she referenced stuff specifically near the end of videos and stuff like that. So, um, yeah, if you, if you, if it's just like, I saw your content, I feel like you have valuable input on, on marketed, like if you're, if you're reaching out to you, for example, and you're gonna be like, well, I have 50 of these emails today, but if they're referencing something you said five years ago that they've picked up on, then they're going to be like, Okay, he's earned another line of reading, right? Yeah, um, so yeah, I think that was it and I also would go to other agencies, right? So I was using LinkedIn and going to agents, uh, creator agencies that I knew had a lot of, a lot of, uh, TikTokers and YouTubers on their books. And I was like, wait, if I can get them. Then I've got loads of creators as opposed to one. So yeah, getting the, the quote unquote, warm intro, like these people introed me to you. Yeah. And if, if you name drop, then they'll respond. That's good. Yeah. Uh, when I was thinking about in this, Yesterday was like, you have to look at someone and see what they probably are lacking and offer that versus like what they already have. Um, and, and frame it in terms of like something that they probably think about a lot. So for me, If anyone listens to this, um, I, I like what I'm lacking right now is like personal connection. I'm trying to build community in my local area. And so I had like a, a local company reach out and was like, Hey, do you want to help promote our thing? Here's this blah, blah, blah, blah. And like, I get 10 of those a week. But if I had instead, it was like, Hey, love your stuff. Like I've been meaning to like, connect with more entrepreneurs, like It's hard to have good discussions around this kind of thing. Like I have a meetup, there's five of us going, like, do you want to come? That's a hands down. Yes. For me. Cause I get it. It's not a one on one is like, Hmm, this person might be weird. I might want to leave 10 minutes in, but like five or six people there. There's, there's a higher likelihood of. Um, enjoying that. So whatever that is for your space, I'm sure there's someone listening that, that's hopefully that helped you click something, but you've got a frame in terms of what they're like, their brain is telling them that they don't have every day and they need, which like the core human needs are not many. There are few core human needs that you can probably hit on. Um, anyway, so back to the agency journey, you were freelancing. I think this is when, like the last time we were working together, but on an official basis, at least you were freelancing, you were, um, kind of building up your first few clients, but it wasn't until about what eight or nine months ago that you really went. Full time with the agency. It was a bit longer. I think it was August of last year. And I, I probably, it probably would have gone on for longer than that. Honestly, that I, cause I know you, you told me many times, like, look, if you're going to do this, you need to be all in. And I was like, I, I know, but I'm also terrified to do that. So, um, I kind of got pushed because my, the lady that ran the pages, Became really hard to work with so I was like look i'm not going to do this now I'm, like when am I going to do it? And also if it goes horribly wrong i'll do it for six months and then i'll go get another job at another agency And i'm sure there would be agencies that would Take me on. Um, so Yeah, it's, uh, grown faster, so, okay. So it was a kind of a push into going full-time. How many clients did you have at that point? Definitely not enough., , so I think I had three , so, okay. I'd, I'd signed two. But the funny thing was I, I, I'd signed two, I, I had that one free trial, one that I'd done the trial, like literally. A year before that right and then I think they in like august the year before and then they signed on with me I think january of 2023 um, and I closed another one in february of 2023 and then I kind of got sidetracked by like I A really attractive rabbit, right? Like I I I It was quite a big brand that wanted to work with me So I did that for like quite a few months, but on the meme pages Is and was still running ads for two, two or three landscapers as far as my memory serves. Um, but that was great because like I, in that six, between February and August of last year, I improved my service delivery. So I had these three clients and they would be like, have you considered doing X? And I'd be like, That's a brilliant idea. And because I only had three clients, I was like, I'll do that. Right. I'll do that today. Like I'll, I'll fix that today. Like I'll improve that for you today. And, um, it's no surprise as free clients is still with me because they feel like I've got such a good relationship with them where I've kind of helped build a product around what they wanted. Right. So, um, but that's the same, same with me. I have my first free client, three clients. And it's because I, I, I don't talk to him much now, but I treated the first three months. Like They, they were royalty. And because of that, like they've stuck around, you know, and it's, it's interesting. Cause I've thought about this model a lot where it's like, look, let's say you only bring on, instead of trying to grow crazy fast, you bring on one or two clients a month and you just roll out the red carpet for them and make them feel like really, really valued. And that's, that's like, talk about passive income. You could. build up eventually, let's say you did 12 a year, you do that for three years, you've got 36 clients paying you a thousand to 2000 a month. And because you treated the beginning of the relationship properly, they're very unlikely to churn. Um, as long as your service doesn't go. Yeah, terribly downhill after and you you've got too many. Like if you've treated them right at the beginning and you have a bad month, they're like, whatever, like I, I trust that they're going to turn this around. Um, but that's somebody who should start that agency where they just go really slow. They get someone who's really good at, um, service delivery on the back end to just run the ads for them forever. And then literally all you have to do is like take the sales call on board them and like, Your margins are a lot better because you're not constantly bringing on new clients. You can have a waiting list as well. And it would make you feel like it was really exclusive. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, exactly. You're like, Oh, I'm actually talking to the guy or the, the girl herself. That is, I saw them online. Like I had a lot of business owners are really into that. This person publishes content. They must be famous. Um, Okay. So you're, you're bringing on these few, that's, that's a good nugget that they've stayed with you because of the treatment you gave them at the beginning. You end up cutting off your other sources of income in August, 2023. How long did it take you to get to your next few clients and where did they come from? I signed, I think, I think two in August and two in September. Um, yeah, that sounds about right. And then maybe two more in October. But like, what I wasn't aware then, um, which I'm obviously aware of now, is that every month that that was going on, I was getting closer to the period where getting results in my niche is quite hard. Um, so I was actually, in terms of where they came from, the first two in August, one of them came from I think to I think those two came from cold outreach. I was still in cold outreach then I had a VA that was sending uh emails at scale to my niche and Then I think september So I did your I did your facebook post In the group method, which, uh, I don't know how much I can talk about this. If this is, I mean, it's kind of, I learned it from you, but I guess it's just a lead magnet into a Facebook group. Right. So it was, and I, I'm not lying when I say I literally took yours and changed the wording to my niche and just put it in. Um, and what that did was like, I'm still feeling the value of that now. Over, I think I did it in like May, but like it didn't, it didn't really, like, I still couldn't sell, I didn't know how to sell. So like, I think I got quite a lot of inquiries off it, but I didn't, I didn't close people. Um, but then in September, I think I got one who asked for that. So it was like a free download. It showed my ad that I'd run for, uh, one of the, one of the trials. Um, and just like a little, little, it was like a little PDF. It wasn't, it wasn't great, but it, it, it gave the basic information that Yeah, um, was helpful to people. And what it really did was, um, it helped me build my Facebook profile. So I think from that one post I got like 200 friends who were all in my niche. On Facebook. And then, so one of them in September came from that, um, he was like a really late, like, reply to that. It just carried on trickling in for ages. And was it like, comment and I'll send it to you? Is that what the post said? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, if I was going to do it again, I'd say comment your email because I just kept getting blocked all the time. Like it was a nightmare. But, um, and. Another one was one of the free trials from like nearly a year earlier. So it came back eventually. Right. Um, and yeah, I think going into the later months of last year, it was a bit of a mix of, um, I was doing, started posting on LinkedIn a little bit. Um, I got a speaking gig. Um, which, um, was great. Uh, they definitely didn't know that I didn't have that, that many clients, but I think it was the fact that I could lean on my previous experience. Um, and yeah, just started building my profile from there, I guess. Uh, the post in the Facebook group with the like info pack lead magnet, that was kind of, kind of felt like a meteoric rise in, The UK home improvement space where you were like, suddenly became this authority, right? Yeah, I think it started that off. I think it started that off and then other things, other things came into play. So I think I, I saw that post. You showed me the post you did, uh, when you were running Autopatients. And soon after that, I also read, um, KPI by Dan Priestley. Um, I don't know if you've read that book, but really good book. Um, and pretty much the premise of the book is, um, it's like a step by step process. I'm not going to lay out, but it's, it's to try and make it. So if anyone thinks about the service in your space, they think of you. And I read that and there was some key takeaways. So like, let's say for yourself, if they think of orthodontic marketing, um, they think of you, right? That was the goal. So I did the speaking, started writing for the magazine. So, um, in my space and just carried on for carried on. That all came from just that initial Facebook post and then continuing to post on Facebook and LinkedIn. I think it definitely helps. Um, I think I also, Was quite good at connecting with some of the right people. Um, and I went to some events in my space long before I was working with that many people in the space because I wanted to be able to talk their language and I met some good people there. So yeah, it's cool. And it's interesting because you're in the UK, like it's a little more tight knit than like UK or sorry, us home improvement conferences. Like there's probably. 500 a year or something, but you're like your sub niche of home improvement. And you're like, you know, we're going to go to the UK event for this, just walking around and they've, they're like, Oh, I saw that guy in the Facebook group. And they're like, Oh, maybe I've seen him in a magazine as well. And it starts to create this. Yeah. Yeah. I think the biggest case I had of that, I, I reached out to someone a lot. I didn't have a client in one area and I reached out to one pit. I still do. I don't do a lot of cold outreach, but every so often I'm like, Oh, I want a client in this area. So let's do it. That's just message of fuency of anything happens. And I sent this guy a message like probably six months ago. And he just sent, he just replied with his mobile number and he didn't have his mobile number on his page. And I was like, okay, called it straight away. And he was like, Matt. So good. Thanks for reaching out to me. It's so good to put a voice to the name. And I was like, what I've never spoken to you before. Like, this is crazy. So yeah, it's the power of brand is absolutely madness. Um, right. And it's, it's crazy how, how you built that in a relatively short time. Like, it's not like it's been that long and you know, you used your, your background obviously to leverage some of that, but there's not enough being said this, I'll have to read this book. You said KPI by Dan Priestly. Yeah. Um, it does. Why is it called KPI? It's a key person of influence. Ah, okay. I thought it was like, yeah, it's like. Yeah. It's applied on that. The, like, that definitely was part of our, like, why we got acquired, why OrthoPatients was acquired. It was a big part of people reaching out to us, like they, they saw us in their email, they saw us on ads, they saw us in Facebook groups, they saw we're friends with a lot of them on Facebook. Um, we never did any events. We almost did. And then like everybody got COVID that week and we just like lost the deposit and didn't end up going. Um, but I was talking to a student last week about this same thing, but locally. And they were like, how do I improve, improve my show up rates? Um, And I mean, show up rates are one thing for like the dental niche. It's a nightmare, uh, in many ways, but also like close rates for somewhere in home improvements and where you're showing up to the house and the, the show rate is much higher. Um, when you were well known. People know your face, they know your brand, it's trusted. They've been recommended by other people. You sponsored the local elementary school track or whatever it is. So whatever the equivalent of that is in your area, there's so much to be said for that. Like there's sure the, the business owners. Like you can't take credit for that as the agency, but if you can select the client that is already doing all of those things, and then just throw a little bit of gasoline on their fire with some paid ads or whatever else, it's, it's like game over. It's like, Oh yeah. Like it's really easy to close all of your clients because they trust you and you've been around for so long. Um, so from there you went from three to around like 20 clients. Now, would you say. How many of those clients would you say just came from them reaching out to you? Definitely over half. Okay. Very cool. And it's usually like, Hey, I saw your thing in the magazine. I saw you speak. I saw you. I think it's, um, it's mainly they see me in Facebook. Like now I sponsor a few Facebook groups, so I'm allowed to post in there. So I posted some of those. Um, when people get tags looking for, Um, in my space, I quite often get tagged by my clients now. Um, I sometimes send the, the client who's had the most recent big win. I send them the post and say, can you just show me some love on this? Um, yeah, it works really well. I mean, it just, the opinion of others is worth so much more than me chiming in myself and blowing my own trumpet. Right. So, um, But I think with the, with the speaking and the, um, and the magazine, all of that is just playing into me becoming reputable. So I don't think it's, I think it's the whole combination of factors together. And then they see a post, uh, where I posted a case study on my Facebook profile and they're like, Okay. I've seen this guy around for a long time in different places now. Like I should really have a conversation with them. Yeah. Maybe there's something to this and that is also very underrated. Like the amount of clients we had that they'd have a sales call and then they wouldn't buy for a year, like benefits of staying in business, like benefits of not switching your niche every day. Five months you start, they're like, okay, you've, and I started to get other vendors, like a lot of other vendors in the orthodontics space being like, can you run ads for us? Cause like I see yours all the time. Like you seem to know how to reach these people. And I was only spending like 400 a month. It's not like our, our, these people's business businesses were way bigger than mine. And I was like, man, I should start a, an orthodontic vendor. Marketing agency, they probably have a better product and like a lot more years of experience that I could just help them market it. Cause I understand these people. The other thing I wanted to touch on is like referrals and Facebook groups. Just a note, like if you are marketing to any sort of business that would be recommended by someone else in a Facebook group, that is your competition. Like you're saying, Hey, pay me two grand a month and 1500 and ad spend. And, uh, we'll get you some clients. And they're like, But Joanne, like I redid her kitchen three years ago and she recommends me to everyone and she's on Facebook 24 seven and I don't have to pay her anything. And um, so a recognize that's your competition, but B this works in the local space as well, like massively and some of the best marketing for anyone is just being Facebook group or next door or whatever. It's so powerful. Um, so I want to go to sales cause I remember, uh, listening to some of your early sales calls and kind of coaching. We won't go into detail, but, uh, it certainly seems like you've improved, but also, I mean, having warmed up people already trust you is half the battle. Uh, but what have you learned about the sales conversation? What is, what are some unique takes you feel like you have or things that you've learned through the process? I think I was just when I started, I was just really lacking the confidence. As I said before, I also didn't have like a proper, a proper process in place. Um, I generally think that I do well with it now. I don't, I by no means think I'm some sort of sales expert. And like, I think the re one of the reasons that I've gone so heavy on building the brand is because, um, I, I did like those skills. So I was like, if, if I have people coming to me and they've seen testimonials and this kind of stuff, then they, they are more like, like, it's going to be an easier ride. Um, I think that, and the fact my author is, is pretty good. Um, and the fact that people, uh, people seem to, we'll see what the viewers think, but people seem to typically like me on sales calls. Like, I think that counts for a lot. I think I, I do. I do ramble a lot on sales calls, but I think people can see that I am quite like my authentic self and the confidence with My product, um, is what comes is what comes off. Like I don't think any of them can deny my confidence with, with what I'm doing and the results I've got. I think the subtext of that is like loving your niche. If you hate talking to them, like your sales percentage, it's going to be lower. Yeah. It's just the way it works. Yeah, for sure. For sure. When you say, um, you ramble a lot. And the offer is good. Talk us through, like, what is the actual pitch look like? And how have you come to confidently say that? Like, if you were pitching me right now, maybe walk us through what's happened so far in the sales call and then what do you say? Mainly just like, uh, the problems they've been having previously with, uh, With lead generation, what they've tried, um, where they're looking to get to all the, all the normal stuff, all the closer framework type stuff. Like it's, uh, it's nothing, it's nothing amazing. Um, but it works. I definitely try and go a level, like go a level deeper than some people do in the UK sometimes, which can be quite hard with a lot of. Builders here in the UK are very type A. So I, I, I think I've learned with time, which people you can, you can, uh, do that with and which people just want to crunch the numbers and see and see case studies and how it works. Right? So it's so huge what you just said, though, like, just read the room. Yeah. Freaking room because there's some sales calls I've listened to. I'm like, this is the most awkward thing in the world. The other person is just begging for the pitch and you're like gatekeeping it for no reason. Let's just move on. Just tell them they're there. Seems like they can decide pretty quickly as long as you give them. Yeah. Yeah. And I think as I've built my brand, I've had to, I've stopped doing a lot of stuff cause they are, they are just like itching to see how it works. Right. I was on a call with someone earlier and they were like, how much does it cost? And I sometimes tell them that on the intro call, I sometimes don't. Um, but I told him, look, we'll, we've got a call book for Wednesday. We'll go over everything that's involved. Um, and I'll show you, I'll show you what other people are investing into the, into different variations of the program. Right. And, and he was like, well, whatever it is. Um, I want to pay it because like I'll just factor into the job. So yeah, I'm excited for Wednesday and I'm like, okay, it could be like 20 grand a month. You don't know, it's not going to be, but yeah, that's kind of the, I definitely feel like I've had other people on those calls where I'm like, Okay, like it's quite often now where it's just like, I just need to move on and just get on. Great. And what, when you do show them, like, are you going through some slides? What is the pitch? Yeah, I go through slides. I would like to not go through slides, but I, um, I suffer with really bad ADHD. So I would, I would go very heavily off course if I, if I didn't use slides. Um, I think without using slides. Like, I think you can use, I probably will reduce the amount of slides I use, um, and then just have it more bare bones because I think it is a bit overdone, but in terms of the slides, it's just, um, the result that I'm looking to achieve from all my clients, uh, case studies. Showing them, showing them the ads, showing them the follow up systems, um, showing them, um, yeah, just how that full system works. Um, and then just the offer, the guarantees and, and the money. Like it's, it's pretty simple. Um, and there's, there's probably a lot more that I can do with it, but I guess if it's not broke, don't fix it. Type six. What do you mind sharing the offer and the guarantee you're running. Yeah, um, so it's uh 20 inquiries, um minimum every single month or you don't pay a penny and that includes ad spend all right, so I might change that at some point because uh I I've had a couple of difficult markets and i've paid people back money at points but um It's worth it to get them in on the front end. Like it's i'm fine. I'm fine with it. Um So yeah, it's, it's definitely a risky offer. Um, but it makes it, I think the key is you're not leading with it in your marketing. Like you're leading with authority. I know what I'm doing. Like they're not coming on the call being like, great, I'm going to get this guaranteed. So it's not attracting that. And their mind frame is different where it's like, Hey, by the way, just to make this a no brainer today, it's. Yeah. Yeah. I think I, I think I'll change it soon because I had a guy recently that has had me on Facebook for well over a year and he's, he's uh, he's quite, he's quite well known in the space and he was like, Matt, I don't want you doing that. I don't want you putting your head on the chopping block every month. Like I want to just work with you. And I was like, Oh my God, the times have changed. Like, this is, this is crazy. Um, so yeah, I think I can probably reduce it. And I probably, uh, yeah, I shouldn't be having such. That is huge. That's it's, it's the, uh, caliber of client. I would say, and, and certainly where you're getting to, but the caliber of client that like, I, I sign up for something nowadays and someone. Drops a guarantee. And I'm like, it's a turnoff for me because I don't, I don't need it. I don't want it. Like we both know this is the, the results are unknown. And I, I just want to trust you based on your character, not your guarantees, but somebody who's a bit greener in that space would certainly like it. So it's, maybe it's something you can reserve or like you're talking to somebody like, I don't think I need to say it here, or, uh, you were talking to someone and they're kind of hesitant and. You're like, Hey, what if we do this for the first three months, this is a guarantee. And then after that, we, yeah, yeah, I think that's wise. The other thing I really think you do quite well is you've probably spent, I don't know, you can tell us the full number, but tens of thousands of dollars on coaching, but you do it in a very unique way where you're kind of like find the person that you want to talk to. And then you just. Yeah. Thanks. Pay them for an hour of their time, pay them for an hour of their time, kind of triangulate all this stuff. But from the beginning, like you've been, you've been one to spend on coaching. Like, I think you bought my very first ever course thing, which was like 45 two hour course of like how I grew my agency. You're like, this was awesome. And, uh, yeah, but you've, how much would you say you've spent on stuff like that? And what's your recommendation to people? Because I think you focus heavily on service delivery and the consulting that you've gotten. And finding that can be tough sometimes. Yeah, I don't actually, I can't lie and say I've tidied up the numbers. But, um, yeah, it's a fair amount. And it's, it's been, it was originally all in courses. Um, and I don't think I spent loads and loads on courses. I always liked the, I always liked the finding the right person and the call. And people will surprise you sometimes when you offer people money for a call. Sometimes they don't want to take your money. It's lovely. Um, and so sometimes I heard that from an entrepreneur ages ago. He was like the people that. Have lots of money sometimes they don't need your money But they respect the fact that you've led with that instead of saying can we hop on a call and i'll pick your brain Yeah, I mean like it's it's going back to like leading with what people are lacking Sometimes they're lacking that sort of like they want to be a mentor They look at all the other coaches and like they're busy on their agency or busy with whatever else And you give them that opportunity to like give back and they're stoked on it, which is really cool. Yeah Oh, yeah on this There is a, I'm never, I'm never going to like get into coaching space, but it's, I can, having had someone recently who wanted a couple of my hours of, um, my time like that, it does feel very rewarding. You know what I mean? Like it's, it's a, it's, it's a nice thing to do when you feel like you're helping people get to the next level. But, um, yeah, I definitely a lot of those calls and it's been the best investments I've done it myself. And how do you find the people? I remember where I found you. I found you on, uh, I found you on Trey Cochram's, uh, YouTube, um, age, like age, it must have been like a few months after you started Autopatient. So that just shows how long this has taken me, right? But yeah, um, But I, I found other people in that way. So I go, because I don't want the people that are like the authority on this space or like 150 K a month, because one, they're going to be really expensive. And two, they're going to, they're going to be talking about stuff that I do. I literally just don't understand yet. Like, and it's not the problems I want the people that. Um, went through what, uh, went through it more recently, so it's so more fresh on their minds. So I would find those guys and then look at their video testimonials sometimes and be like, Oh, okay. This guy's a X amount. Let's have a conversation with him, um, and ask him, Hi, I saw you on X. How much for an hour of your time to learn what you were talking about with that, with Y. Most of them were quite. Fine to do that, right? So what's next for you as you look into, I mean, the next couple of months, you said something interesting before we hit record that you should probably repeat, um, in terms of what you're doing with the slow season in your industry. Um, so I'd love to hear that. And then talk to us about what, what's, what are your goals for the next. Two years, let's say. Ooh, two years. I feel like I, I feel like I look at things on so much more of a shorter term now that I probably should have written down like longer term goals. But, um, do you want me to do the goal first or the what I've done in the work? Yeah, talk about like November and December and what you're doing. Um, so November and December in my space, it is really hard to get results. And I learned that the hard way, cause I had to pay a guy back, uh, for not hitting guarantees in November last year. Um, he actually wouldn't take a hundred percent payment back. He would only take 50%. So he didn't make me pay him back the ad spend. He's actually someone I'm still friendly with, but learn a lesson there, which was. This industry is really hard at this time of year. So, um, I've actually just over the last few weeks, I paused most of my clients. Um, and with, uh, with it in mind that we'll turn them back on at the start of next year. Um, and I've actually actively, um, Um, it's not the case that they've all seen results drop off. I've encouraged them to do so. Um, bit of a hit to revenue, obviously. Like it doesn't, it doesn't help me in any way. Um, apart from the fact that a lot of the business that I've got is through reputation. So like, I'd rather work with me for one, nine, 10 months of next year, then I'm trying to get results now and then churn before, um, that's, they're going to get the most bang for their buck in terms of, uh, in terms of their spend. Um, and it also kind of positions me as a, I've got one client actually that started with me in January last year and he posted in a Facebook group saying, I'm looking for more leads, um, in November. Um, so he started with me January this year, he posted November of last year. And I, I reached out to him and said, look, you've probably been bombarded with messages from marketers. Um, I just want to let you know that I've turned off all my clients and now is not a very good time to run ads. So if you can get through till January, um, I would recommend you run ads in January. Um, and we went back and forth a little bit and then he came back to me and was like, Matt, what'd you actually do? And then we got that. I hadn't really told him anything, right? Like it was just, it was just me genuinely being like. Look, you're going to get bombarded. Just be careful because there's going to be a lot of people that are promising the world and they can't deliver. Um, and then he signed on January. I was killing it. I was killing it. And he's, he's been with me ever since. And it's just like, I feel like, uh, by viewing things in that way, the people that I speak to now, like this guy understands our space, like he understands now it's the down season and he can get better results for us then. So it makes me more trustworthy. Right. I want to get to, I probably look at this on a very short, short basis, but I want to buy April, April of next year. Um, cause when I, when you said I've got 20 clients, I've got some that are paying so little, but they're like from right from the start where I was like, do I do whatever to get them through the door? No, just someone that I just never raised up cause I love work. Um, I would like to get to like 20. 25k pounds in revenue by like April, May next year. Um, so We'll see if that can happen. I might need to turn on some other taps. Um in order to do that, um, which i'm aware of but I I think The top that I have in terms of my personal brand. I've heard if you do, if you, if I run ads with the personal brand, yeah, it should hopefully crush it. So yeah, that's what I was just going to say. Yeah. You turn on ads. You probably don't even have to spend that much. You're going to be getting a hundred dollar booked calls, which is unheard of. Like with the size of your niche, how well you are already known there. It's like. All the people have like, yeah, I've been meaning to reach out. There's just not an easy way to do it. I find that that that's what ads do. Like it's just. It's like, Oh, I'm, you're like, I'm forcing this in your feed and it doesn't feel invasive, like a DM or an email or whatever. Um, even though it is maybe equally as invasive, people are just used to it. And they're, it's like, Oh, great. Good excuse to like, Yeah. Yeah. I've purposely used the same one photo of my face and everything that I've put out as well. So like, whether that be when I'm speaking gigs, the post, like the marketing material for that, the magazine, my Facebook profile, my LinkedIn profile. So I'm thinking that I'll probably just do it from a page that's my name as opposed to the agency name and be like, yeah. There's that guy again. Okay. Fine. Yeah, very smart. Uh, okay. So turn on ads next year, like January time. Yeah, it might, it might be, but I think it, I might do in December and see, uh, just, uh, to sign people for sign people for Jan. Um, so what does your team look like at this point? Yeah, good question. Um, still just me that same VA. Um, so that VA has gone from blasting emails to doing a lot of other little admin tasks. He, he can now do all of the backend onboarding outside of the ad. So I've got it. Like, I think you showed me an SOP for, Um, for onboarding ages ago and I still had a screenshot of it somewhere and I was like, I need to create this. I did that and I, I got him into, I got him onboarding all the clients and then I was like, all right, now I need a media bias. So now I've got, I, over the last like month and a half, I tested a media bar on three new accounts. Um, he's got good experience in this space in the U S. Um, and now, um, He's, he's done well so far in the UK. Um, and it's, it's nice actually having someone go through your ad accounts, you know, like, wow, I've, I've, I thought I knew a lot and I still feel like I know a lot, but this guy's making changes that I was unaware of. Right. So, um, just us three for now. And then I think the next logical thing is that I would like to, um, I would like to use my media knowledge and, um, bring on somebody to do more video. Um, so I'm not sure I'm working out the kinks of what that looks like at the moment, but, um, like for your clients, like making video ads for them. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Um, cause I feel like that's my unfair advantage compared to a lot of agencies. Um, I think it, if I were to lay out your, Two or three year plan. I think you could start to take maybe some equity or percentage deals with people and that would get over the seasonality problem as well. Cause it's like, Oh, look, we made, I think you get two months off over the holidays, which is great. And then you also, um, you actually, you just get a piece of the upside for the 10 months that you're running ads and you could also help them with rebranding and, you know, All of the other stuff that really makes sense for them. So taking like your best clients and putting them in a tier that's like, yeah, I'm getting X percentage and I have some phantom equity. If you sell or full equity, obviously the legalities of that, I am on qualified to speak on, uh, but I have seen people do it successfully. And I think you're, you're positioned well to do that with. With the agency work that you're doing with them being like the vetting process where it's like, okay, I know they can close. They're doing great. I've grown their business by X percentage this year alone. What if next year we just do a percentage and like, Hey, I'd be even more motivated. We could send a videographer out. We could redo the website. We could do all this stuff. And, um, I just take percentage of revenue based on where you're at now and above or where you're at when we started and above. That was cool. That's good bit of advice. It's just. I guess my reservation is like tracking systems and stuff. It's, it's not. It's, uh, it's also just the case the more I've done this, the more I've realized that like a lot of the leads through me, um, do not come through the, the, uh, the call to action on the ads, they do so much background, they do, they, they go head to the website and they get loads of different stuff. So it's like, It's hard to, it's still hard to track in that way. Um, yeah. What if you could control, I'm just saying like, if you're like, look, I'm the CMO, then you get to benefit from all of those things. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a good idea. I found one little sub niche last, last Christmas that I've now, it's funny. Actually, I rewrote the PDF. Guide for this niche, uh the other the other day So it's actually gonna be a loom this time because I just can't I I just want to make it quick And I think the loom is uh, it's actually more valuable, but i'm gonna drop that on it's easier to consume as well Yeah, yeah, yeah for sure for sure. Um, and that's it. That's a sub niche that Is more popular in the lead up to Christmas. So it could be, it could be smart. Yeah. Love it, man. Um, cool. And the, the title of this podcast is supposed to be what, like zero to 15 K in three years. It's been a bumpy road, bumpy road, but, uh, It's worth continuing. Like when you were talking a minute ago about like, uh, by being in the same space for so long, I've got two clients, um, that are with me now that I had a sales call with in January of last year. And, and they both came back to me organically and they were like, I wasn't in a position to do it then. I've seen you so much since then. Can we do it now? And I'm like, okay, but there's a few updates. The pricing has gone off a bit, but yeah, it's definitely, that's so cool. I think you could really drive some, some positive, like, like people salivating for the offer with. Limiting spots as well. Like I only have this many spots open for January. The they're already half full. Um, the reason I do this is so that everybody has a white glove on boarding experience, whatever. So that could be cool. And then they, they come begging to, you're like, sorry, they wanted even, they're like, I'll pay double. Cool, man. Thanks so much for coming on. And, um, I'm sure this is gonna help a ton of people. So appreciate it. No problem at all. No problem at all. Thanks for having me, Kian.