The Power Plays Podcast

Ex-$120M Director Now Makes More Money Working 2 Days a Week as a Consultant (Full Interview w/ James Kemp)

• Keaton Walker

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In this video, Keaton Walker interviews James Kemp, a successful business consultant living in Bali who built multiple 7-figure businesses while working just 2 days per week. James shares his unconventional approach to business success, revealing why selling small promises with big vision is more effective than making huge claims, and how changing your content from "how-to" to "how-I" can transform your results. As the author of "The Sovereign Consultant" and a mentor who's helped countless entrepreneurs scale their businesses while maintaining lifestyle freedom, James explains why the path to success isn't about following someone else's template but finding your own authentic way through demonstration rather than declaration.

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Timestamps:

00:00-Overview    
00:29-Hello James!    
06:13-GHL!    
08:02-Gunning for the $150mil business  
10:23-Honing skillset and mindset    
12:59-The Art of Time Management    
17:29-Measuring a different kind of success  
24:26-Who do you need to be, to be successful?  
30:32-Feeling left behind    
33:05-Dials to tweak    
41:37-Attracting Quality Leads   
47:04-Offer Creation    
55:47-Serving yourself    
1:02:57-Stop Needing, Start Attracting   
1:06:41-Don't Sell, "Demonstrate"   
1:10:15-The 0-$100k Way    
1:16:52-More of James's Secret 

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#smma #consulting #podcast

James:

There are certain things that you can give and get that enrich your life in ways that you didn't appreciate. A lot of people say they're building a business, but what they actually want is enough cash flow to live a great life. The way to get clients is by not needing clients. Getting things is useful to prove or disprove whether those things enrich your life. Consulting is telling people how to do something, and then the modern way parlance of consulting, it's doing it with them. So your traces of knowledge are left after you stop consulting.

Keaton:

How's it going, everybody. Welcome back to another interview. Honored to be joined by the James Kemp today. Uh, all the way from Bali, Indonesia. James, thanks for coming on, man.

James:

Hey, man. Good to see you.

Keaton:

Good to be seen. Um, so I found you, I think about a year ago, and I actually found the post that, that like, Was like, Oh, wait, this is different. And you were talking about, actually, I have it here. I want to read it. Um, because you know, like I get connected with a lot of random people on Facebook and. It's the usual drivel, but this, this stood out to me in that I was like, Oh, wait, this is like actually insightful. I stuck my desk in the up position. I can't sit down even if I want to. I do my best work standing up. I could sit down. When your life is integrated, the sitting down time bleeds into the other time. I can hear them in the other room. I like hearing the patter. They call out asking me to play. Keeping my desk in the up position means I have to choose the highest leverage tasks. Otherwise, I would be standing here all day. I create that environment that is productive and present for me and the people I serve. So I can create an environment that is enriching and present for them. The more days I spend on the earth, the more I appreciate the little things, the little hinges that swing on bigger doors. I'm on. Standing here writing this so I can be on for them. Uh, and my, my baby was like not born yet, but he was like three months. It was like three months until the due date. And I was like, man, there's so much to be said. And your, your school bio is the Lord of leverage. So I think it, it fits along well. And, um, it's a mindset that I've, um, Really like done my best to adopt from you as we've worked together and I've consumed a lot of your stuff. So excited to dive into that today because it's, it's just not talked about enough and the, the leverage piece is the difference between honestly like living or dying in the online space sometimes. Yeah.

James:

Yeah. Thank you. Um, you, you, um, thank you for two reasons. Thank you for sharing the moments because when I, when I write or create, I, you know, I create for myself first and one person second. All right. Thank you for sharing that while I'm sitting down, which just makes it.

Keaton:

We'll talk about the many contradictions of James Kemp. But a Saturday morning,

James:

so. Okay.

Keaton:

So give us like five minutes on you. Uh, you started way, I mean, you're from New Zealand, but you started kind of your, your business journey. In the UK, right?

James:

Yeah. My entrepreneurship journey, um, you know, started just over two decades ago. Uh, so I'm dating myself and aging myself, uh, pretty quickly. So, um, well came from a sales, the sales world, you know, worked for kind of blue chips, BMW, um, Xerox, and some of the blue chips came from a sales background and gone into finance and, uh, and started my own finance company. Uh, where I was, you know, selling, selling financial leads, uh, door to door. Uh, and then I found this thing called Google and WordPress and started to realize that maybe it was easier to, uh, you know, work with your fingers, uh, rather than knock on a thousand doors a day on council estates and, uh, and the English winter. Um, so did some reps on the door knocking and then, and then was self taught in terms of generating leads that I sold to finance companies. Uh, unfortunately finance companies stopped. Um, you know, during, uh, a financial crisis and I had to go and get a job, um, and went, went into the tech sector and, uh, long story short, over five years, um, started as a salesperson and worked my way up to, um, marketing director of 120 million business where, uh, essentially we were, we were a Groupon clone down, down there in New Zealand, um, and accumulated that time, you know, the itch to get back into, into entrepreneurship and take the skills that I'd, you know, Both built myself, but also built and, you know, um, and high volume sales and online sales environments back into helping people do it. And then, uh, do you know, took the traditional coaching consulting route, uh, learned from the best and adapted, you know, a lot of those ideas for myself. Uh, and then really, um, you know, learn in the, in the mix, you know, did, did what I taught, what I did and, and, um, and did what I taught, uh, and you know, the last, the last few years, especially of being the realization that, you know, once you've got a set of skills, once you've got a basic skill. Um, that it's, there's a lot of things to chase. There's a lot of shiny objects to chase, but, um, we have the great privilege nowadays of choosing to build a business around our life rather than our life around a business. And, you know, in my younger days, um, it was all about hitting the numbers and getting the targets. Uh, and these days it's about having something that I do that fits my skillset, that, that, that ultimately feeds my life rather than the other way around.

Keaton:

Yeah, I think that's your like you have the skills and the mindset of Uh, let's say, uh, or Hormozy or Sam Ovens, but you choose to play in this. Some people would call small game, but you know, you know, two to 3 million a year trying to get to 10 with a tiny team and only doing calls two days a week. Is your. Current goal, correct me if I'm wrong. Yeah. Yeah. Hey guys Just jumping in here to give you a quick word on our sponsor high level before we get back to the interview If you don't know already high level is the top sales and marketing solution for any business But particularly agency owners or anybody that needs a software product to resell to their existing customer base It has everything you need to capture nurture and close leads for marketing clients And the best part is high level believes in not taxing the agencies You on its platform so you can get unlimited clients for one low flat monthly fee. The best features include a CRM, funnel, website, and email builders, course hosting platform, robust marketing automation builder, a consolidated chat stream with WhatsApp, email, SMS, Instagram DMs and Facebook DMs, reputation management, social media, posting, tracking, and analytics, and so much more. And as if that wasn't enough, HighLevel is fully white labeled, meaning that you can take the platform and put your own brand on the desktop and mobile app and resell it to your industry for whatever price you want. Essentially what HighLevel has done is brought the bar for starting a software company way lower so normal people like you and I Can help our clients with an amazingly robust software without paying hundreds of thousands of dollars in development costs. I am not kidding when I say hands down high level is my favorite software of all time. It has been integral to my success with my agency. It helped me increase my client's results and retention and I use it every single day for my own business. And if you sign up for high level today, not only will you get a 30 day free trial, which is not available on their website, but you will get all of the bonuses listed at it's keaton. com forward slash mastermind, which gets you support templates and courses to kickstart your high level journey and get those first few clients or scale to your next few clients. If you're already a high level customer, you can also get all of those bonuses by upgrading to the next highest plan underneath my link. Instructions for that are also at it's keaton. com forward slash mastermind. And um, I think there's more people that need to admit that to themselves that like, that's all they really want. I've heard you allude that to that in the past. Like you talk to clients and they're like, they're embarrassed about their real income goals because they feel it's too small. Yeah. Tell us about that. How did you, like, were you gunning for. I mean, you are gunning for 10 million a year now, but with very, very small constraints on that. But were you gunning for the, the big 150 million business and all the employees and that eventually, and how did that fall apart and, and eventually reconstruct into your current goals?

James:

I didn't know what I was gunning for. Um, I was gunning for something that, that, that gave me meaning and, and got me recognition and like brush the chip on my shoulder that I've, you know. Of the small boy who was never seen, um, so I was chasing, I was chasing goals because it, because numbers on the scoreboard, you know, for a long time correlated some sense of meaning for me. Um, and then in, in the time I, you know, I was married and I, and I built a family, uh, and then when that came along, it shifted the sense of meaning. So, you know, at, at, at, at the peak, if you like of, you know, a traditional model. Yeah. You know, I had a team of 14 and, you know, we were doing just under 3 million a year at, you know, okay margins, um, you know, and built out the traditional model. But, um, it was all consuming and, you know, the next up level of skill acquisition of management of hiring of people development, Um, I realized would take me away from my core, which was, um, having fun and making cool shit with cool people. Um, so the, the, the game was on, you know, and I've, and I've got a big skill base to go wherever I want to go. Um, with those skills and, you know, I've had teams of 25 people and, you know, in the middle of, you know, nine figure businesses, um, so the game was on to, to keep growing and keep scaling. Uh, until, you know, Um, life made me realize that there was life going on that was outside the computer screen and outside the, the, the, the nine to eight, you know, kind of hours, um, and that was skills I didn't want to, didn't want to develop.

Keaton:

Was it having kids that made you realize that?

James:

Yeah.

Keaton:

And, um, yeah, you said that there are skills I didn't want to develop. Did you have anyone in your circle that kind of, you feel frowned upon you or tried to convince you to go to the next level or was there their respect for knowing what you wanted?

James:

I still do. I think, um, there's, I, the choices I've made, especially in the last 24 months, um, you know, a lot of my friends have large businesses. A lot of my friends have large teams. And a lot of my friends have, you know, secret struggles that they don't want to share with people because they, they, they sell that model. Um, and, you know, privately, um, they say to me they're jealous. Um, but, you know, they also, I'm not, I'm not looking to invalidate anybody's idea of what a business is and or what life is. Um, I'm just saying there's a choice about how we build it and we have to be deliberate to, to decide the, the things that are important to us. You know, when. Um, I started working with you. Um, I allow places to put truth on the table. What do you actually want? Because we're all in these, we're all in these environments where a lot of people are trying to self validate the thing that everybody else wants. And they're like, it's kind of like that Spider Man meme of like, do you, you want this, you want this? And everyone's pointing at each other going, yeah, you want this big agency with this huge team and you want the, you know, there's things and then. Everybody's quietly turning around and whispering and going, This sucks. The responsibility, the expectations, the margins, the work, the chase. This sucks. There must be a better way. And, you know, I give permission for people not to build businesses. Because very, very few people actually want a business. And all the things that are associated with it. You know, and until you've been inside these big machines where you can lose yourself, you don't really appreciate what that means. And a lot of people say they're building a business, But what they actually want is enough cash flow to live a great life and spend time with the people that are important to them, um, you know, and do the things they want to do, whatever that might be. And you know, if we break down all the things of my model and my philosophy and those things, it's that. What do you want? Here's some tools that I've got that can help you get there. You know, and I have clients with sales teams. I have clients with setters and closers. I have clients who deliver agency services and have done for you. And I don't judge a single piece of that. I just give them a leverage to ensure that they're doing the things that they want to be doing with the people they want to be doing it with and rewarded. adequately for that.

Keaton:

Yeah. So much there. Um, would you say the, like you, you work, quote unquote, work two days a week, meaning I do client work two days a

James:

week. I work a lot, including in my head.

Keaton:

Yeah. Yeah. Um, you work in your head on the other, other times, but you are talking to clients two days a week. Would you say that the time talking with the clients you see as. Like a necessary part of like, Hey, I'm selling consulting. So this has to happen at some point or, and, or does that feel like the art to you? And what parts of what you do, do you enjoy the most?

James:

Uh, all of it because, um, I see business as a creative game with a scoreboard, right? This thing we call business and essentially. The most effective long lasting businesses, institutions, movements, et cetera, are kind of rooted in ritual and creativity and, you know, and, and, and freshness and newness of old things, you know, whether it's politics or religion or business, it all, or art, it all kind of manifests in the same way. So my goal with clients is to give them the tools that I've accumulated, give them the insight about how they work for me, and then help them understand how they might work for them so they can go off. And run it themselves. And we can both learn something because if I'm not learning something from an application of, uh, and the delivery of a client. Then it's not interesting to me. So I am, um, infinitely curious rather than trying to get, keep anything. You know, um, I'll use you as an example, if I may. Um, yeah, I'm not on YouTube. I don't know much about YouTube in terms of, uh, an organic strategy. Um, I've seen it. I've worked with people who have giant YouTube channels. I work with people who spent, you know, 5 million a month on YouTube ads. I've, I've seen it all, but I don't participate in it. So I'm infinitely curious about when I help you build a community and start to build some, you know, coaching and consulting offers in these pieces, how you apply those to your world. Because if I can see the insights and they bring them into my world, that makes me better. And the increase in my skill and the deployment of that skill, and the more I'm prepared to let it go, then makes you better. And we're in a happy cycle. So I don't see any of it as work. I just see it as art and then the science bit. The art is the creativity and the deployment of it and letting go of the ideas. You know, and that's been a, that's been a two decade long mantra for me of just letting go of ideas. Um, giving them to people so we can multiply them. They can multiply them. And faith in the, and trust in, you know, whoever you believe in. Uh, on that spiritual level that the universe will return that favor and work in all our favors. So I'm always looking for what ideas can I give people and put out there? Um, and then how can they, how can they develop ideas? Cause if it makes, if you do well with my ideas, I do well from the insights that you gain from those. And we all do well together.

Keaton:

Yeah. What a worldview, like wake up in the morning and it's not about, How can I pad the bank account? It's about how can I share and multiply ideas with cool people that I like hanging out with? Is that a fair characterization?

James:

Definitely. Definitely. And it's from, um, obviously it's from a place of, you know, to break the seal on that, you have to trust that the universe has your back. But now it's from a place of deep financial comfort, strong stability, you know, financially and mentally. So it's easy for me to say these things. Um, but it, it, it had to start from a place of if I like, let my ideas go and put them out there, um, then I will be rewarded and the less expectation I had around that and the less pressure and need I had for that. It's funny that the more I was rewarded for that, you know, over the long term in the, in the financial school board that, that, that does matter. Um, but can also be blinding when you're trying to manipulate it in the short term. Lots of people are chasing short term results, where if they allowed those results to happen, um, then their long term results would be, would be infinitely better than they're seeing to, you know, today and tomorrow.

Keaton:

Yeah, it's so interesting. Um, so, I'm sorry, this is a bit of an inflection point. Um, but it, just to relate back to what we're saying and then Transition to the next point. I read this in one of your posts recently as well. As a mentoring coach, I'd love to hand over the exact step by step template to success. It doesn't exist. We all measure success differently. I assembled mine, your path can be assembled too. That's the, the lie that's being sold is the opposite of that, that you need to want the Lambo, you need to want the big house, um, and the, the refreshing breath of air, air from you and others like you is that, that, hey, like, let's just figure it out. It may be something different than you're being told.

James:

It's useful to get the things, I hate shoulds, so let's talk about utility. It's useful to get the things to then validate or invalidate the idea of how important those things are. When I bought a 153, 000

Keaton:

SUV

James:

that I'd coveted and watched the YouTube reviews of, and watched people drive, and had the wonderful engine sound. I did it so four months later I could prove to myself that that didn't actually make me any happier, and it actually introduced a level of. Um, stress in my life that was, was not pressure and was unwelcome, right? I bought the super expensive watch to wear it around to be then too scared to wear it in public because it's too expensive and it's too valuable and I might scratch it. So now it sits in a box in the safe.

Keaton:

Yeah.

James:

Right? So it is useful to chase things to, to then prove or disprove whether those things give you, any kind of validation or meaning or what they mean, because some of them do. There are certain things that you can give and get, um, that, that, that enrich your life in ways that you didn't, didn't appreciate. I, I live in a pretty like oversized, large villa in, in Bali. Right. And I always said, I don't need something that big and that fancy. It's excessive. It's too much. We've got space in like this office I'm in the corner of, and I'd. There's this, this massive room in front of me because I've got all this space. Right? And then when I started inviting people over and I brought clients over and we sat down and I, and I, and I built an environment where I saw people have breakthroughs that they'd never had had in any other ways. And then I'm expanding my family now, uh, puppies, you know, puppies included, um, to, enrich this space, but for a long time I said I didn't need it, I didn't want it, and you know, all kinds of levels of cope, you know, depending on, you know, what attitude I had on that particular day. So getting things is useful to prove or disprove whether those things enrich your life, because you may be surprised When you, um, hit certain goals or get certain things in your life, um, what they actually lead to and what they actually mean to you.

Keaton:

Got it. Uh, it reminds me of another one of your posts where you, maybe you can provide some more context on this, but you were talking about how hilarious it, how hilarious it is to see these like 20 somethings in monk mode, just like head down, doing nothing, not spending any of their money and you're like, It's going to manifest itself as this crazy midlife crisis at 50, like you might as well buy the Lambo now,

James:

figure out you don't want it

Keaton:

either way. It's going to be fun to watch, but

James:

Coke and hookers era is going to be epic because it's just, it's, there's bottling up energy and saying that you can channel it in one way and that will get you to the goal. You know what? And there's enough truth in that for a certain number of people for it not to be disproven. But for many people, these, uh, these ideas, uh, um, inherently bottling up energy that could be used in, in much more productive ways.

Keaton:

Yeah. So would you say the wanting of the material item, um, like there's some people who would say, don't let that drive you, you have to find your why, et cetera, et cetera, but you and I both know that Y can be more elusive than. Then we want it to be sometimes what would you like? Those are temporary goalposts that you're okay with being like, I'm doing this right now to get the next material thing. And then that will teach me a little bit more about what I don't want and what I do want.

James:

Yeah. Do stuff like get rich and then see how you feel. Right. And this is the same philosophy with. With any kind of any kind of growth, you know, I knocked on Um hundreds of doors every day when I was doing door to door selling right because Behind each door was a the opportunity for the sale Right.

Keaton:

Yeah.

James:

And life is exactly the same. Life is exactly the same. Do things, work out what those things mean to you, and then either do more of them or stop doing them. Right. And that's an oversimplification of a, you know, a very simple philosophy. But I just believe life is very simple. Do stuff, see how it makes you feel, what results did you get, and then stop it or do more of it. And I think especially in societies where there's a lot of high IQ people or, you know, and a lot of people professing emotional intelligence,

Keaton:

a

James:

lot of people just get stuck in their head about what success might look like. And then they abstract that by looking at how someone else does it. Oh, I don't want a Lambo because I saw a guy who's got a Lambo and he's an asshole. Right. You know, I don't want to move to Bali because I saw someone go there and they, you know, they got a sore tummy. Right. So they, we approximate someone else's experience with ours. So it stops people doing stuff. And this is the, this is the amazing paradox I see nowadays. It's like never been easier to start something and it's never been easier to get rich by just from your ideas

Keaton:

yet

James:

less and less people are starting because they're worried about what the future might look like if they do those things. Because they're living through other people because they've got that shoved in their face Through social media every single day and they go well if I do that then this is gonna happen It's like you don't know just do stuff

Keaton:

Yeah,

James:

do more stuff make more offers Take more risks do more things while you can and then learn we only learn by doing

Keaton:

yeah, it's such a good point So you listed that you wanted today to talk about who do you need to be successful? Who sorry who do you need to be to be successful online? I'm glad I reread it because I was thinking it's What do you need to do to be successful online? But that differentiation of who do you need to be is, is huge. Um, and I want to give you plenty of time to talk about it, but I want to ask this question first. What would you say in terms of like financial security, what were the levels for you where Different levels of abundance or just being able to like breathe and look around and kind of focus on this becoming mindframe. When did that unlock for you? Um, obviously it would be amazing if everyone could unlock that earlier. And I think they'd ironically progress faster if they could do it out of abundance instead of out of need. But, uh, yeah, talk about your own journey there and then let's dive into. The, the journeys of what other people might look like.

James:

Yeah. I think each step of the journey, if I reflect back, whether it was, um, from job to entrepreneurship, back to job, back to entrepreneurship was essentially, um, finding replacement value as I call it. So, um, I work with a lot of people who are kind of have the golden handcuffs, like they're coming out of a particular place where they're making good money, but they feel trapped in it. So we work on replacing that level of income with an income that they actually love doing and a much higher effective value rate because they have multiples of leverage. So rather than earning 150 grand a year as a, you know, as an, as a VP, you're earning 150 grand a year, you know, as a consultant. And you're working 85 percent less, right? So for me it was, the, the, the levels of abundance were matching the income of the previous thing, of the previous step but getting more time back. And that allowed me to be then more creative to take the next step. And a lot of people chase the income increase rather than chase the time increase. And the times where all the magic happens, the times where all the creativity, the uniqueness, the development, the building actually happens. But people are focused on the work because they directly correlate the work with getting the income.

Keaton:

Yeah.

James:

So for me, I was coming from, you know, a hundred and what was I on when I left GrabOne? About a hundred and sixty grand basic plus bits and pieces. So say it was 200k by the end of the year. Yeah. I had to walk in to consulting gigs that paid me at least that, but I could get those consulting gigs and I could do them in a day and a half a week. So I went from a 60 hour a week marketing director with all the responsibility in the world because it was a 24 seven operation, you know, daily deals was that, um, it is that, um, into a, into a place where I could do that and then I could have the time to build it. And so in the, in the each step up, as long as the lifestyle didn't expand, and it did to, to, you know, fill the void of, um, of, uh, of surplus in the income, then I was always just looking for how can I get more time back? How can I get more time back? But for the vast majority of people, they are comfortable. right where they are now at that 10, 000 ish a month is the, is the comfort, is the comfort level. And then the desire kicks in because then there's, then it's all about the individual being perpetually dissatisfied. And the, I'll tell you where I sit now. Um, I'm on a run rate of 3 million, just over 3 million a year, right? I haven't had a full year where I've done 3 million, but I'm ahead of that run rate. And by the end of the financial year, I would have yielded over 3 million out of this, this current business at 90 plus percent profit margins.

Keaton:

Yeah.

James:

My reach to 10 million is not through need. I have financial abundance. I have vehicles where I investing that money and where it's going. And I know the purpose of it. It's to play the game more and to stretch the scoreboard. So as I sit here now, I don't need more than that, but I desire it. Cause I want to work out how to do it under the constraints that I've got. And I can clearly see the path to about five and a half million with the current product suite, what I do now with very little alteration and just optimization, I can't see the path, but you know, Canada, I can't see the path beyond that, that the technology, the leverage and those things will come to me. And I have no, I have no timeline and I have no goal on that. So for me, it's always been about replacement, putting the time in, getting the time back, and then, then understanding where that time goes to, to, to then take the stretch. And go, what's next? Where do I really want to go? You know, and um, like honestly, especially there was a four month period this year. Um, you know, a seven months into the year, there's a four month period this year where the season was cruise, just cruise, um, growth, pushing, scaling. It was not, it just wasn't feeling it. And you know, that's a privilege to be at when you've got hundreds of thousands of dollars coming in every month. Um, but it's also, you know, paying attention to what season you're in.

Keaton:

Yeah. Oh, just the, it goes back to the worldview of I'm just, you know, here, finding and multiplying ideas. And when I wake up one day and I'm not feeling the growth or whatever, I just like, because your model is very much dependent on you because you have very little team members, the business kind of has to grow with you comma, and that's okay. Like it has to grow when you're feeling good and it has to cruise when you're feeling like cruising. Um, is there ever still that sense of like, I'm, I'm getting behind, does that creep in or do you have you ever just stayed that out? Oh,

James:

yeah.

Keaton:

Okay.

James:

And the more you fill your world with like super smart clients and super smart friends, the more you'll, you'll, you'll feel like I'm missing something here, like, you know, I feel behind the curve on. YouTube. I feel behind the curve on AI. I feel behind the curve. And then, you know, I just tap up smart people and go, what am I missing here? Like, what can I say? What, what can you say that I can't see? What do you, what do you think I should be doing and just be, you know, I don't know if I can know what I'm talking about. So like, I've got an idea and I know how these principles apply and I, I work from principles, but how does it, how does that layer over? So, yeah, I always feel behind and I always feel, feel a certain level of dissatisfied, but then, you know, I check in with myself on the daily, on a, on a daily basis about what I'm doing, who I'm doing it with and why I'm doing it to ensure that I'm actually. In the driver's seat of my life, rather than, um, than living someone else's life, because I've convinced myself there are, there are, there are better things out there. Because there's lots of good ideas out there, and there's lots of very, very convincing people telling you that their idea is the best. And they've got, you know, you know, we have all got very good at this, myself included. Um, you know, I have convinced if you like many people that, uh, you know, a one person consulting business is, you know, the panacea and definitely the future. And for, for, for many people that's correct. And, and, and for some it's not.

Keaton:

Yeah. Yeah. I think like your model, when I started with it, I was like, this fixes every problem. Like it's amazing. And then you get a few months into it and you're like, okay, there's some drawbacks. Okay. What's this? Um, but I, I was just talking to my wife. So can I ask,

James:

can I ask you a question about that?

Keaton:

Yeah.

James:

Do you know what dials to tweak within, within it now you've got it going?

Keaton:

Well, for me, it's been a little weird because without trying the affiliate income has gone to a point where I'd never dreamed it would be. And it's just faster, easier, less effort, like the most leveraged thing I could do and it's recurring. And so I'm like, what does the, I enjoy the one on one, but also there's part of it that's just a grind for me. And so I, I'm also in cruise mode where I'm like, can I just back up? But I'm what I took from you. And I'm still taking is like, there's your consulting model or your, your agency model, whatever it is, like literally is completely up to you. Um, so your thing about like stop D. Like, uh, or stop demonizing selling your time. Like you're selling your time for a thousand an hour. Like that's a great effective rate. Just sell like a hundred hours a year, a hundred thousand dollars. If you have some saved, like you can have a really amazing life with very few work hours. And like, why would anyone demonize that? So that for me is like, I do enjoy one on one, but I, I don't know. I was getting, I think, caught up in too much, like too many beginner conversations where I wasn't enjoying the monotony of it. And so I'm, I'm kind of recalibrating and figuring out like how, how much of the beginner conversations I want to be having versus the, the higher level. Like, Hey, let's, let's take this from 50 K to a hundred K instead of let's take this from zero to five.

James:

Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, yeah. One of the ways, one of the ways I look at that, and this may be useful to you is. is, is, can I, do I want to stop having these conversations or do I want to change the forum that I have them in? So for me, um, beginner conversations, um, are much more useful in group environments where I can teach, teach by demonstration through an example, because the distribution of that idea is far more leveraged. Cause if there's 40 people on the call and they all take something away from me working with one person. Then the amplification of that is both more valuable to that individual, but also the people who are there. So therefore the amplification the satisfaction that I get is much higher. I'll have beginning conversations all day long, but one of my clients who has 52 million a year, I ain't dropping them in a group and saying, what are your current problems? And you know, how are your 44 team members operating today? And you know, what are the numbers in the KPIs? We do that via WhatsApp and, and jump on a call when we need to because he needs me when he needs me. And the availability of that is, is, is proof of value. So, so for me, I go through seasons where I don't want to speak to people one on one. And usually if on reflection, it's accumulated, um, stress of letting people too close to have the same repetitive questions. And there was no feedback loop of energy to say, okay, I've had this, I've had this conversation five times this week. Okay. And I'm fatigued because I'm not getting anything back from it, but high level problems or, um, you know, expensive problems are much more satisfying to solve because then the, the amplification of those problems is much more satisfying. And, and, oh yeah, we got back and, um, you know, one tweak and a client's offer, you know, made him an extra 1. 1 million and you're like, yeah, that's cool. Like solving problems at scale that didn't happen in a group call and, uh, you know, and, uh, in a school group, uh, it happened, you know. Yeah. On a, on a phone call and then a follow up, you know, a follow up zoom where, you know, we're pushing things around and writing words. So for me, I'm always looking to change the modality. Um, and I understand why I'm in that place where I'm, I'm not enjoying something because the energy is not there.

Keaton:

Yeah, exactly. And I think that's, it's, it's seeing the result for me that makes it worth it. And so that's like one off calls. I had a ton of those when I first started out, it was just like one off call. And then I literally never heard from the person again. And I was like, that was not worth the money. That I got paid for that because I, I need to know the outcome, even if it's bad or whatever, like this person, they just never report back. And obviously you can, you can reach out to them and usually get a report. Um, and I love those ones. Like, I, I ran into somebody last week. Just out of like local meetup. He's like, dude, we did a consulting call like four years ago. I was like, Oh really? Like, was it any good? And he was like, yeah, I'm doing, you know, 30 K a month now or whatever. Oh, that's awesome. Like, I wish I, I knew more of those stories. And so for me, I'm, I'm sort of like, I don't, I don't want to be on all the time and have to be forced into calls at a specific time or responding within a certain time frame. So I'm trying to figure out, is it just like a season of the year where I do that because it's fine for a while, or is it more like taking equity in a few businesses and like really being on the front row seat of like what the. consulting that I'm doing is, is changing for them. Um, but I'm luckily in a, in a position where the, uh, you know, again, the accidental affiliate income has, has gotten to a point where I've, it's opening up my abundance and mindset so much that I can take that time that you were talking about and just. Take the sabbatical, figure out what's next type of thing.

James:

Yeah. Yeah. We, we, we learn through contrast, right? And what your journey is helping you see is the value and the affiliate income, which helps you define it and put it in a place where you define it and how much work and effort you want to do to grow it or maintain it or, or whatever that your decisions are.

Keaton:

Yeah.

James:

And then to, to put yourself in places of contrast to say. Okay, I'm coaching these two people one on one. One on one is the consistent thing. The same modality. The variable is the people. This person I'm enjoying working with. This person I'm not. They've both got the same thing, but they're different people. And you know, I, I was, I was defining this on, on the, I have a syndicate group who get calls with me twice a week around that these businesses are offer driven, but human powered, I, I can show someone how to make the best offer in the world from a, it's easy to sell, but the, but the, the, the, the, the effect of that offer in terms of the delivery of it, that stress, the energy, whatever it is. And the, and subsequently the. How long it's going to last selling easily and being fun to run, et cetera, depends on the humans you put in it. And in the knowledge economy, that's pretty much defines almost everything. You know, if we make good offers, people will buy them. If we work with quote unquote bad people, which is just a people who aren't optimal for us.

Keaton:

Then those

James:

offers won't last and sustain and they won't give you the results you want. And so many people will blame the offer rather than their decisions and their commitments and their participation. It's easier to get people to buy stuff. But even if I called a hundred people today and offered them a thousand bucks on the phone, you wouldn't have a hundred percent close rate.

Keaton:

That's true. Um, and it sort of reminds me, and maybe this is just me, Realizing this in 2024, but I feel like 2024 is the lead of, or the, the year of the quality lead, like, look, I don't care about how many come through. I care about how many actually have the money. I don't have to arm wrestle into a sale. Like I'm just, I'm too old for this type of thing. It's like what I'm hearing for most people, even if they're not old. Um, and that, that plays out on the other side, obviously with how difficult they are to manage or how much energy, energy they drain, et cetera, who, who do you have to become to be able to do that? Be the person or how do you attract the, the quality leads and the quality customers? Um, even if you're a beginner,

James:

there's two levels to this. The first, the first level of solving old problems, new ways, right? And so the first, the first level is old problems. New ways just means there's certain things that aren't going away. People will always want to look better naked. Businesses will always want more leads, more sales. more money, more revenue, more profit, better team members, et cetera. So a lot of people are trying to solve new problems in new ways and no one understands what the heck they're talking about. Right. So look at old problems, what problems that can be solved and what desires are in a marketplace that you, a category that you have permission to play in as in Markets are built inside out, you know, I came from an e commerce world and so my first clients were e commerce because I could talk the talk, walk the walk, I could, I could build inside out because I had market knowledge, I knew participants, I could speak the lingo and I knew what I was talking about. So which, which old problem can you solve in a new way in a category that you got permission to play in, right? And permission to play in might just be going into that category and busting in the door and getting your first person to actually solve a problem for you and deploy a skill. New Way means I've got a unique mechanism that sits over the top of this whole problem and I'm solving it and that's how I'm going to get your interest, right? And so owning and branding your unique mechanism, um, is really critical because it differentiates you in a commoditized market because lots of people are trying to solve those problems. But when you combine those two things together, you get. A multiplication effect, a compound effect that's much bigger than one plus one if you help people lose weight, but you've got a new mechanism to do it, you know, combining the old the old problem with the new way will get you far more attention, a far more buy in a far more, um, application of those people because humans need humans have base desires, but they also need stimulation and they need newness and they need, um, you know, certain levels of dopamine with something new in terms of doing it. So they need new ways to try and solve those problems. Um, the second level is, is the way to get clients is by not needing clients. The way to get money is by not needing it, because you're fulfilling your own needs first, and you're in a place where you don't need anything from anybody. And the closer you can get to that state, the more that that will flow in because you've got capacity for it. And in the world of commerce, the, the, the pushiest, most aggressive salespeople tend to make the most, tend to make the least sales because they project the most, the most need. And need doesn't flow to where it's deserved. It flows to where there's capacity for it. So if someone feels like that the only reason you're doing something is because you need the money, they're unlikely to give you that money. But if someone feels like you're doing this because you love it and you care about them and you, and, and that the result is the only thing that matters, then the money is just the transfer, you know, of that, of that same energy. And if you, if you remove the need in yourself for validation through money, through clients, through being seen as the smartest bastard in the room, then you'll find that the power is actually accumulated indirectly by giving it away and allowing other people to have theirs. And your power is, is, is the fact that you don't need any of it. You don't need, you don't need any particular person to make you feel Whole and complete on that particular day.

Keaton:

Yeah, it's so true. I was talking to a friend earlier today about how I, I don't even see what I do as a business anymore. Like there's no, there's no ego wrapped up in it. And I'm not like, I'm an entrepreneur and that chip on your shoulder, you talked about. I'm like, I just. I found some money glitch on the internet and it happens to be working out for me. And that feels infinitely more powerful than having to parade around like I know what I'm doing. There's a

James:

beautiful gratitude wrapped up in that, right?

Keaton:

Yeah.

James:

That I was, um, you know, that, that, that idea that, you know, I was given this opportunity and, um, the, the, the, the, everything's working in my favor. And. Here I am. And it's meant to be. And there's, there's a beautiful gratitude in that, which just says I'm the luckiest bugger on earth because I get to, I get to do this and this is happening for me.

Keaton:

Yeah. Yeah. It's so true. Um, so along those lines, I feel like a lot of beginners who we may have lost already at this point in the conversation, but even a lot of advanced people, all they talk about is revenue, revenue, revenue, like, Hey, I can help you make more money. Yep. Um, And going to that, the quality lead conversation, something I've learned from you is the right people have specific problems that the wrong people don't have and specific desires that the, the wrong people don't have. Um, for example, I was working with a client in the orthodontics space and he was saying how his orthodontist that he loved the most, that was like the most qualified and just close the most people and had grown like two X since they started working together on his Facebook ads was he had gotten more efficient over his 30 years of being an orthodontist and therefore he was able to take on more patients. And I was like, that's the perfect hook for an ad. Are you at an experience worth it? Honest with that has gotten more efficient over the years and, um, you want to fill, fill the spots so that you're getting as much leverage as possible for the days you're spending in the clinic, let's lead into that. But on your end, I feel like, I feel like you've given me permission and others permission to be like, yeah, I don't have to be thinking about business, doing business, having my ego wrapped up into my business 24 seven. In fact, it's better if I don't. Um, and arguably a more powerful desire for that right person. The, the orthodontist with 30 years of experience, for example, is here's how to spend more time with your family. Not here's how to make more money. Um, that reminds me of another hook I heard years ago that was like, don't sell the dentist, Facebook ads, ask the dentist, like you got to talk to the dentist about, um, Why the hell that became a dentist and like, talk to him about how to get out of that because they're probably miserable. Like, even though you may not be selling biz ops to dentists, you need, there's a lot of people that need a different approach or need to be pitched in a different way. Does that make sense?

James:

Yeah. So the thing I talk about is currencies, right? And so there's, there's predominantly an offer creation, like three pretty simple currencies. One of them is the is almost infinite and two of them measurable. So there's just money, you know, and There's op and business coaching and even an agency world It's you are selling money, right?

Keaton:

You

James:

give me two thousand dollars a month to run your Facebook ads and build your funnel and I'm gonna give you 20, 000 a month worth of business back, right? It's just money arbitrage. You give me small amount I give you a big amount as the as the as the promise Then there's a time factor, which also leads the energy factor, is that at a certain time people have a feeling of enough in terms of the money category and they feel like they can move to a time category. They want time back, but what they're really doing is wanting energy back. So my, um, and I don't like any of the language that we all use around low level and high level and good and bad clients and people, because I don't, my, my findings is none of those things really exist. They're just perspective at a certain place at a certain time with, with a particular individual, but they're useful in the designation of this, but high, high level people want energy back more than anything. Because we have a finite life and we understand we have a certain amount of energy, um, life force energy and we have a certain amount of time to use it and we want to use it to the best of the ability of our abilities. And then we have meaning around the things that we use our energy for ourselves, our family and these pieces. So the selling of energy is, you know, to that, um, to that orthodontist, we just need to give them ways to measure it. Ways to measure energy is, um, you've been, you've been a business for 20 years. Um, and it used to take you, it used to take you five days to serve 40 patients, put 40 patients in the chair. Um, and now you can do that in two. And then it gives them and say, and then you can spend the other three days playing golf with your family, you know, and, and planning your retirement out. And I'll help you plan your retirement out and an exit for your orthodontic business and, um, you know, and how to have enough cashflow for the, for the rest of your life. And so you can have intergenerational wealth, um, that you pass down to your children and your grandchildren. Right. And then they can start, then they're starting to build a picture of. Okay, I'm going to use my effort and that I've put in over the last 20 and that competence that I've built by being able to serve 40 patients and half the time into the things that matter to me and you paint a picture of that. And that's what copy, that's what copywriting does, right? It just allows us to paint a picture of the future that doesn't exist yet for someone and then allowing them to be relevant, um, make it relevant to themselves. So the, the, the low level, you know, the, the, the surface level is, is selling money. Um, you know, the secondary level is, is selling time to some degree. Um, and the infinite game is, is, is, is being in the market to sell energy and then using the modalities that we have to, to do that and, you know, in terms of service and delivery, there's, there's only really, you know, four. And you just mix those modalities based on your skillset

Keaton:

for modalities to sell energy. You mean

James:

for modalities to serve. So we've got coaching, consulting, mentorship. Um, and service delivery, right? And service delivery is just, I'll do this thing for you. And it is nothing else. I'll do this thing for you. I will spend 10, 000 a month on Facebook ads for you to this funnel, and this will happen. You will have leads in your calendar and you call them on the telephone, right? And it, and it kind of ends there. We wrap a lot of stuff around it, but service delivery is just doing something for somebody. Uh, mentorship, mentorship is. This is how I would do it. So my high level mentorship is people asking me how I think about things and how I've done things in the past that have got success that they want to replicate. And I say, this is how I do it. This is how I think about it. Consulting is telling people how to do something. And then in the modern parlance of consulting is it's doing it with them. So your traces of knowledge are left after you stop consulting your system, your ideas, Your philosophy is left there because you've done it with them and it's been embedded in the business. And coaching is help someone see that they've already got the things inside them to do the required action. Um, help someone see and give them insight enough to actually get them to do the thing that they need to do, that they're telling you that that will ultimately move them forward. And we switch between those modalities naturally. Like a lot of agencies do a ton of consulting, but they don't get paid for it. You know, and that's a gigantic opportunity for almost every agency to have a consulting level in their business that just does consulting, you know, and actually monetizes it because it's very high margin and high value work and business. Um, and so people, I unconsciously do change between those modalities when they're, they're being a coach or even being an agency owner or being a consultant. But those modalities, when you actually understand the, the, what they are and how to deploy them. That it opens up a world of opportunity about how you can actually use them either as individual products. Um, sell them as individual products, but also serve people better in that time. You know, you've been on my, on my group calls, um, you know, with folks and I, and I asked permission to consult to them. Like if I've got time and space, I'll coach someone because that will leave the longest lasting legacy because they'll, they'll be unable to do it themselves. If we don't have time and they're, and they're floundering around and it's like, can I just consult to you and tell you the answer and you go and do it. 99 times out of a hundred, they say yes, right? Because they're looking to, they're looking for the life raft out of it. But when you use these modalities, you can serve people a lot better, but in the process of that, you serve yourself a lot better,

Keaton:

you serve yourself a lot better, is that what you said? Yeah. Because you're, because why, why are you serving yourself better with those modalities?

James:

Because you're setting the correct expectations, you know, and life in a, in a, in a human world is about expectations. And if you don't, if you. If you coach someone to do something, but you're actually telling them what they want and what to do, and you think you're coaching them, but you're actually consulting to them, you're setting an expectation that this thing is going to be right for them, rather than allowing to discover it themselves. And that will downstream have an effect on their application of that piece, their, um, their, their results from it, and ultimately their desire to continue it. A lot of people have told a lot of people to do things in the, in the hope that it was in their best interests. that turned out to be damaging. And if you correct, if you set the correct expectations with people and yourself, then everybody is clean and clear going forward. And there's no overhang into areas that, that can, you know, then, then blow back to, um, blow back in either party's lives.

Keaton:

Got it. It's, uh, I think a big theme of you in general is like self confrontation. Then self honesty, like you lie to yourself, you'll lie to your clients, you'll lie to everyone around you. And there's, you're always going to be living with that cognitive dissonance until you have to face the music one day and realize that it's been you, the bowling ball crashing down everything in its way.

James:

Yeah, that, that's, that's the benefit that I have of being old, right? I'm a, I'm an old man in a young man's game, you know, in the sense that I can, um, I can see what's coming because I've been there, you know, and, and those places and I, and I provide a huge amount of value to people in my world because of that, because I, I can see over the horizon because we've already, I've already stepped over there and there'll be monsters, um, and I can tell you not to go over that one, but maybe we can guide you towards this one, which might be preferable.

Keaton:

So how does somebody get to the point of being able to solve the, the energy problems like the, what I have in my mind is the agency owner that's saying, you know, make, give me little money. I give you big money. But there's a big asterisk there, which is you have to work 10 more hours a week. To get this next level of money. And once the client realizes that they quickly cancel because they don't want to sift through all the, the bad leads, et cetera, et cetera. They didn't realize all this stuff came with it. Um, can you speak to that? Like, how do I. How do I become the person that can consult the orthodontist on, uh, the retirement strategy and that whole thing, which feels like playing in Disneyland compared to 10 of these Facebook leads never answered the phone. And like, I'm canceling right now, which does not feel like anything like Disneyland to most agency owners and part of the reason that they're getting burned out.

James:

Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'm going to, I'm going to default to the strategic answer for this.

Keaton:

But,

James:

um, one of the major things that I help and nudge and encourage and occasionally force people to do is sell a, sell a future identity. Um, it's very difficult for people to do things if they can't see what they lead to.

Keaton:

And

James:

it's, it's very difficult for people to ask people to change in terms of behaviorally, unless they can have a, some sense of who they change into, you know, and ultimately become. Um, and in the agency world, there's a lot of talk about what you can do for people, but there's very little talk about what that actually adds and what that actually brings to them in terms of at that, that life level. And that's just about abstracting and understanding that. If you're an orthodontist who, um, you know, in this initial period, if you work an extra 10 hours a week, in the future, you'll get 20 hours a week back to play golf. That's a different conversation, right? It's putting the truth on the table and saying, as you'll agree, Mr. Business owner, this requires investment. We, we require investment of time. We require investment of money, but you'll get this back in multiples down the track because we elevate you from operator to chairman in the business. And he's going. Ah, I'm an operator right now. I'd love to be a chairman, but I need to invest something in the way. So it is getting the truth on the table and saying, these are the things that you want. These are the, this is the price we have to pay to some degree in the short term, but this is the payoff. Because when you become the, the, the, the orthodontist chairman, um, you know, then, then they start to go, yeah, I'm just chairman of the board and I'm playing golf. And, you know, I'm not, I'm not then in there day to day pushing the buttons and chasing the payments and, and those pieces. So the identity layer in, um, in marketing, if you like, and in terms of positioning, um, is one that's often neglected because we focus on the functional things that people do in the short term. But when you start introducing that future identity piece about selling people on and, you know, indicating who they become, not only do you convert more people in the front end because you're taking away the risk of change, But you also get better buy in in the application of that delivery because everybody's agreed that there's a bigger payoff at the end because everybody's up leveled in the process of doing it.

Keaton:

Got it. So it's about figuring out what that vision is so that you can paint it for your client.

James:

It's not figuring out, it's giving it to them because the brutal truth is most people lack vision for themselves and for their lives. But if you can paint a picture that's desirable to them at least lead them toward the promised land and they understand it. And you know what? The Elfodontist might find that he starts playing golf, but he's better off, um, that he actually loved, you know, volunteering at the dog shelter. But you gave him the space and the time to do that, but via, you know, a mutual investment and you both, and you both committed to play the game. Um, so, so giving them a future identity is about spelling that out about what they become and who they become and then allowing that, allowing that to unfold and allowing them to discover it. You know, I have a concept called the sovereign consultant, you know, I have that said, I'm selling people on being a sovereign consultant who makes a million dollars profit a year and two days a week with 65 clients or less, right? You know what, when you get there, how you do it, what you want to enjoy in the teams, if you want to work three days a week, go for it. But at least we got to it, at least we agreed on the, on the, on the end point. And, and we both understand that the map isn't the terrain. You know, and the system I give people is, is like a coloring book that you buy. I give you guidelines and boundaries and you know, don't color outside that line, but the colors you put in, in, in, in between are completely up to you.

Keaton:

Yeah. With help, of course. Sorry?

James:

With, with help, of course, and guidance. Yeah, yeah, of course.

Keaton:

Um, final question there. How do you put in your outreach or your content? Um, like I'm thinking of someone who messaged me last week. Hey Keaton, if I, if I could add 50, 000 a month to what you're doing. 50, 000 a month in your business. And in the next 60 days, like my, my immediate thought, and I would consider myself, maybe someone who's dealing with the higher level issues at this point. My immediate thought is that sounds exhausting, whatever it is you're pitching, like, I don't really want it because I don't need it. And I think it goes back to what you're saying. Like the more, the more you don't need the money, the. More money will come to you, but that's the same. Like the, the clients that people really want are the people that don't, that aren't desperate for the extra 10 K or the extra 50 K they're desperate for. Some sort of need inside them. How do you, what's your advice to someone? Just like a, an easy way to start implementing that in their outreach or their content or their ads.

James:

Outreach is a, is an interesting one because most people that their goal is to drive a conversation to do some convincing and some showing. So if I was to do cold outreach and if you ever catch me doing cold outreach, come over here and do something terrible to me. Um, but if you, if I ever did cold outreach, I would be sending it to someone who I believed would be the ideal person that I could deliver a result for that I'd already done delivered. So if I was demonstrating to you that I could give you 50, 000 extra a month and get you 15 hours a week back, I would send you a demonstration of that. I would send you a demonstration of this is Bob, he's an orthodontist

Keaton:

and

James:

we got him an extra 50, 000 a month while cutting his working hours a bit. And I would demonstrate Bob on a camera that was chilled and having a natural conversation about telling his experience and doing it rather than saying I can do this for you. And the frame is 50, 000. that a lot of people try to be is the hero of someone's journey. But if you're, if you make them, if you make your clients the hero and you the guide, it's funny how your, your, the quality of what you do and who you work with goes up dramatically because you've allowed people their own power and you've allowed them to tell their story. And then you're just inviting more people to, you know, obtain that power and tell that story. So. So much of the outreach I get is just terrible because someone wants to tell me something that they don't know if I don't, if I know it or not already. I get all ones all the time. Would you like to make, would you get to 20k a month? And I'm like, I would have had to screw up a lot of stuff right now to get to 20k a month. I've been going really far backwards. But it, you know, that's what cold outreach has become, but a lot more, I think, you know, a lot more demonstrating, a lot more showing, and a lot less telling, and a lot more force would get people a heck of a lot further with, greater people that are going to propel them a heck of a lot further than they think they're even capable of now.

Keaton:

Yeah. The word demonstration is what was coming to mind as you were discussing all of that, demonstrating your content, demonstrating your ads, demonstrating your outreach, and you don't have to sell like it's just not.

James:

I, I'm not the first person to say this, but changing your, your content from how, how to, to how I, or how Bob or how Keaton or how Rob did this will have a unbelievably profound effect for a small change in the response that you get to that communication.

Keaton:

Yeah. And those stories are, it goes back to like Sam Ovens interviews back in the day, like those. Those were more valuable than the Samothin's course because I just got, I was like, oh, they did this tiny thing at this moment and that I'm in that exact moment right now. You know, the course was helpful too, but the, the epiphany bridge, even though it's not an epiphany bridge, the epiphanies that come from the conversations and the, the case studies are infinitely more powerful than just the principles sometimes.

James:

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I would humbly say that people learn more from modeling me than what I teach them.

Keaton:

Yeah. Yeah.

James:

Yeah. And anybody who's a parent will understand this. It's, you know, very either directly or instinctually that you are what you do and what you are in front of your children, much more than what you say to them. Get off that phone as you spend six hours on your iPhone doesn't work. Get off your phone when you're not on your phone. Um, and they can, they can observe that is, is, is the way to get that behavior in. And it's the same with clients. Treat them like children. Is that the message? Okay, sure. Let's go with that.

Keaton:

It makes, yeah, it makes me think of multiple times in your community this year, I'm like, I'm just excited to see where he takes this. Like I'm going to learn, I'm going to learn by the start stuff. He starts implementing the stuff. He stops implementing how he switches this around. I can get on the calls. I can go through the course and the workshops, but. Yeah. The demonstration is like, Oh, that's cool. I didn't think of that. And it sticks to, it sticks more than the conversations we've had,

James:

you

Keaton:

know?

James:

Yeah. Yeah. I, I just ran, you know, an experiment over the last three weeks in terms of an offer, you know, and next week I'll be breaking that down about what really happened and what, uh, what it actually looks like. And then there's still the unknown piece about what that, you know, and an offer driven model, what you want is for that offer to lead organically and naturally to the next offer. You know, and so far that offer from the first offer to the second offer converts to 50 percent and that's a big breakthrough Right, you know getting people to give you three hundred dollars and fifty percent of them giving you three thousand you know, within three weeks after that is a significant breakthrough. But on the surface, people can copy the 300 and many people have, but the next level is, oh, how did that actually work? And what actually happened behind, behind the scenes? And what is the, what are the subjective things in that? What kind of people came through it and what are they doing and what are the problems and what, what they're learning? So yeah, the model, the modeling has multiple layers as well in terms of, um, because a lot of people delude themselves that they have, perfect information. They see that person doing that and they're going to funnel hack them and do that, but they don't actually understand the outcomes downstream. And so modeling, modeling is multi stage and also has a lot of depth to it as well.

Keaton:

Okay. I know you need to take the puppy to the beach. So I'll, I'll close with this question.

James:

Big day.

Keaton:

Uh, yeah, big day. Expectations. You alluded to this earlier. That's, it's the downfall of this space because it's not about, you know, it's not about that the results weren't actually good. It's just that somebody was expecting something different most times because you told that to them or you implied it through a, maybe a testimonial or some other kind of marketing that you're talking about. However, you still have this big vision you give your clients and that's the ideal that everyone's striving towards. How is that different from. Go, go from zero to a hundred K and X timeframe. And why do you do it that way?

James:

The purple book, um, got a lot of people to escalate offers to make big promises and repeatedly over and over and, you know, over a decade of doing this thing. Um, I found small promises with big vision. would outsell and out deliver, um, and over deliver on expectations much more than anything. And so the, the, if you work hard on the big vision about what happens, what they become, and you paint a vivid picture of the future, then you're only saying that the small promise that you're going to make is the first step on that journey. And then, you know, together you'll work out the terrain. So for a lot of people, For most people, this is much more effective than big promises, because big promises are just by definition harder to keep, and there's more variables in them. But small promises are easier to deliver on, easier to start, and, and, and I found easier to sell as well, because If you use an example, if you go to, since we're talking about orthodontists, or why not? If you go to an orthodontic clinic that's getting, you know, two leads a month, and you say that I can get you 40 booked qualified appointments every single month, you know, on autopilot without touching a single thing, that experience doesn't feel close to what they're doing now. It feels like it comes with a lot of baggage and a lot of stretch and a lot more work and a lot more stress. Right. But if you say you're at two inbound leads, two inbound leads a month, and I'm going to get you to four, that feels like a positive first step, you know, and then ultimately we're moving towards a state where you're doing, you're getting this many inbound leads, but you're only working this time, and then we can start to introduce different currencies. So it's about understanding that a small promise is easy to keep and easy to sell at the beginning and easy to deliver. But it's a small promise on a step into a larger vision.

Keaton:

And what's your small promise?

James:

I'll get you an offer that you can sell, um, with your thumbs on, on a Google doc. And if we, if we do it to one person, we can, we can do it with a hundred.

Keaton:

Got it. And then the big vision is the two hours or two days a week, million dollars a year. What does that mean

James:

to you? Where do you want to go with it? Et cetera. You know, let's, let's get some results together first. Let's, let's put an offer together that you can sell, you know, in ways that, that are effortless to you compared to maybe what you've and how you've done it before. Um, if we get one, if we get one, it's their belief that we can get two, ten and a hundred.

Keaton:

Yeah. It's like your, your weekly pricing thing, which is just lower the now number instead of a thousand a month, it's 250 a week. So people can get in, but it's the same with believability, like lower the now. Believability. Like, do you think we could have an offer that you're ready to sell next week? Yeah, that's believable. It's actually what I want versus pie in the sky. Guarantee a hundred K a month in two months. And you know, nobody hits it because they didn't do the 12 things every single day on the guarantee. The title is all this

James:

time.

Keaton:

Do you, yeah. Do you get people asking like, Cause I struggled with this when I, I like defined the big vision, which for me was like, it was like 200 K a year. Uh, you're working 20 hours a week on your agency and like, you're taking home 200 K a year. And I would get a lot of people being like, well, how many people have done that? And, um, you know, is that something, like, how do you do it? What's the model? Like they're, they're so. They get fixated on this vision as if it's the gospel truth when really it's just like, look, if it's one 50 for you, not 200, that's fine. Do you get that kind of thing? And, and if so, what do you say to it?

James:

I don't get it at all, but I have a, I have a distinct advantage that I am my own case study. So if I put my own mask on first and do fun things with fun people and make lots of money, I just say to people, do you want something like this or your version of it? And they go, okay. And if you don't have that advantage, which is extremely meta, like do what you teach and teach what you do, then you only need one example. You know, I've, I've seen plenty of cases where someone's just got one ideal case study that they leveraged to get a hundred more of those people as the ideal case study. So the magical number in these, in the, in the course of demonstration is usually one. All right. Cause one leads to two. Yeah. And if you can demonstrate that you can, that you can do it once, and you can demonstrate, you understand the principles of success and that, and the strategic level of mechanisms and the vision level of an identity that you, that you paint a picture of, then you will have more results and more case studies than you can shake your stick at, but it all started with one. And, um, You know, I've got rich by getting other people rich. It's, it's, it's, and the more I, I worked to that ideal and then layer enjoyment over the top of it, then the better it all works for everybody.

Keaton:

Very cool. Um, okay. So you have a book, tell everybody where they can find the book and then we'll end this thing.

James:

The sovereign consultant. com. It's a book that will tell you how to build a million dollar consulting business in two days, a week or less. And I'll show you it's, it's a, it's a, it's a proper book. Not one of these, like, Hey, here's some vague ideas and, uh, buy my next court nine 97 course to do it. It actually tells you how to do it for 10 bucks,

Keaton:

but it's, it's also not that long, right? It's like 68 pages. Oh, wow. 68.

James:

And it's got a couple of videos on the other side of it showing exactly how to do it. So, uh, People can get the how to for 10 or a hundred thousand, right? And, and, and a lot of stops in between. Um, but I'm always like, this is how to do it. Um, you know, I give away the ideas and, and then people will take them where they, where they need to take them. And, and some, some choose to get my help along the way.

Keaton:

Love it, James. Thanks so much. Enjoy the walk on the beach and we'll see you next time.

James:

Thank you, sir.