SMMA Operations Expert Explains How To Scale To $2M/yr (Proven Framework) w/ Brett Linenkohl

In this video, Keaton Walker interviews Brett Linenkohl, who transformed his $700K baseball training business into a thriving operations consultancy. Brett explains his "Factory Model" for turning chaotic businesses into efficient operations. He shares how he helped a marketing agency hire 17 new team members and significantly reduce the owner's workload. Brett also covers the key roles that enhance productivity and the importance of clear documentation. This interview is packed with practical insights to help you streamline and scale your business. Enjoy!

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Timestamps:

0:00-Overview    
1:21-Baseball Guru to business    
5:35-GHL    
7:23-a typical day of Brett    
11:30-the ideal business archetype    
17:08-Book review!    
21:56-what is your superpower    
28:35-brett's framework    
33:13-solving a problems unconventionally    
35:14-the common problems business face with    
40:36-when to hire    
44:25-lying clients    
51:35-how to choose clients    
55:54-how good is shadowVA    
1:14:47-Brett's tips and tricks

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#smma #systems #operations

Transcript

Brett: 0:00

A year later, and she says, Hey, I went from 500 ARR to a million ARR. And then within three months after that, she went to 2 million ARR. Yeah, we got up to like 700K. It was nothing crazy special, but just a decent little six figure business. My thing is going as hard and as far as I can on only what can be proved. Like you have people on your team that really should not be there. Factor taking you backwards, going and solving problems and then finding the pains and what I found was like, Brett, what's up, man? What is up, man? Good to have you on. You too. It's funny. We like crossed paths and then we kind of went away and we kind of this, that, and then what a week ago, kind of reconnected and time

Keaton: 0:39

over too. Yeah. It's good to see you. And, uh, yeah, I appreciate like, I may cut this out of what I'm saying, but like a lot of people reach out and they're like, let's hang out. And I never know if they're like going to be weird in real life or whatever. So, uh, I prefer the group setting. So, um, I know I like was like, Hey, let's hang out. I was like, yeah, but I never committed. And then it was perfect. I was like, okay, this guy's normal.

Brett: 1:02

Yeah. it's funny. Like I have a bad habit maybe of like my own, like I'm, I'm what? Pushing 40. So I'm just like, yeah, let's, so I'm, I'm always kind of grunt on it cause I'm just like living. Uh, so rightfully so. Yeah. It could have been creepy, but no, uh, I'm glad it worked out. It was cool. Like you were sitting, I was like, oh, keep, uh, yeah. Yeah. And so

Keaton: 1:22

it's perfect. Little like local business, uh, meet up here in Charlotte for people who don't know. Yeah. Um, but let's talk about you. So you are a former baseball guru turned

Brett: 1:35

operations specialist. Yeah. I mean, you could say that for me, it was, I think just, uh, I'm just a natural curious person. Right. So yeah, when it came to baseball, uh, which I guess we can go right into, uh, uh, yeah, you, you said, uh, for those uninformed, everybody's uninformed, so it's informed. Yeah, man, uh, so in my 20s, so I, I did my masters in child psych and counseling, believe it or not, that was at Hopkins, in Baltimore. Um, and yeah, like, I played baseball, saw kids playing, so I was like, oh, that'd be cool, so I walked out. Um, I can be outgoing. I'm actually an introvert, but I can be, so I was just like, Hey, can I help? And that snowballed into one thing. And next soon I started renting out, you know, stadiums and throwing camps and it just kind of turned into this business. So yeah, I was a guru at the highest. We were doing like camps for Manny Machado and you know, MLB, Rob Manfred. I don't know. Are you a baseball fan?

Keaton: 2:34

Oh,

Brett: 2:34

okay. So this means nothing to you, but. Um, yeah, so, so did that, got to really speak on stages, and then, um, yeah, that was great. So built something really cool out of that, it was a lot of fun, um, but the coolest part of that was, um, yeah, it was something I didn't even really expect. Was, uh, like, I got to a point, at some point, I was like numb. I was working like 80 hour weeks. It was insane. I was like trying to appease every client, every customer, because I couldn't let it go. Um, and a really good friend of mine that actually got me in the digital marketing world, um, gave me a book. I read it. I read another. I read another. And I found I kind of had this natural knack for systemizing stuff. And yeah, I got that business down. I was working an hour a week. Mwah. And it's like, yeah, whatever. But how I did it is one meeting, everyone in the meeting, all issues, everything agenda. Um, and it was cool. We were pumping it out. Um, but, uh, yeah, so that, that's kind of how that went. That was my twenties. Um, COVID hit. Let me shut that business down. Fresh start in Charlotte. Um, and then I got into digital marketing with that

Keaton: 3:46

buddy. So the baseball thing was in Baltimore the whole time. It was. Yes. So. And you had like all your kids were born there and then you guys relocated here. Yeah. So two of my kids,

Brett: 3:57

Baltimore and then the surprise ones, I got twins. Oh yeah. That's right.

Keaton: 4:02

Yeah. Yeah. We'll get into that.

Brett: 4:04

Yeah, man. So I honestly, I have no idea really to where to start, but, That, that's kind of a quick preview.

Keaton: 4:13

Yeah. So the, at its peak, can you talk revenue numbers on that baseball business? What was it doing and like, were you able to sell off parts of it or it literally just shut down overnight?

Brett: 4:21

No, it was pretty much overnight shut down, unfortunately. Um, so yeah, we got up to like 700 K. It was nothing crazy special. So um, yeah. But just a decent little six figure business, running camps, lessons. I'd hire, you know, instructors. Um, so yeah, it was cool. And the, really the learn lessons out of it, like being in that seat as you know. Um, yeah, I mean, that's, that's kind of what happened. Nice. And what was the margin on something like that? Yeah, it was really nice because I would go to high schools and, uh, yeah, just rent free space. Sometimes free, sometimes, yeah, so, yeah, at the best, probably like 60 70 percent margins. Nice, yeah. Yeah, labor is a big one. Yeah, high school kids. Yeah. That's what we used.

Keaton: 5:06

Okay. Um, don't take this the wrong way. It reminds me of like my little cousin who has like a daycare over the summer. Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah. Go with it. It's just like her parents backyard and like, it's all margin. She does like arts and crafts for the kids, it costs 20 bucks for the supplies. Similar vibe, right?

Brett: 5:24

It is. I mean, you gotta consider there's a lot of like 50 million dollar businesses that are running on debt. Mm hmm. So they're actually worse than her. Yeah. You know.

Keaton: 5:33

Yeah, that's true. That's a really good point. Hey guys, just jumping in here to give you a quick word on our sponsor, High Level, before we get back to the interview. If you don't know already, High Level is the top sales and marketing solution for any business, but particularly agency owners or anybody that needs a software product to resell to their existing customer base. It has everything you need to capture, nurture, and close leads for marketing clients. And the best part is High Level believes in not taxing the agencies on its platform so you can get unlimited clients for one low flat monthly fee. The best features include a CRM, funnel, website, and email builders, course hosting platform, robust marketing automation builder, a consolidated chat stream with WhatsApp, email, SMS, Instagram DMs and Facebook DMs, reputation management, social media, posting, tracking, and analytics, and so much more. And as if that wasn't enough, HighLevel is fully white labeled, meaning that you can take the platform and put your own brand on the desktop and mobile app and resell it to your industry for whatever price you want. Essentially, what HighLevel has done is brought the bar for starting a software company way lower so normal people like you and I Can help our clients with an amazingly robust software without paying hundreds of thousands of dollars in development costs. I am not kidding when I say hands down high level is my favorite software of all time. It has been integral to my success with my agency. It helped me increase my client's results and retention and I use it every single day for my own business. And if you sign up for high level today, not only will you get a 30 day free trial, which is not available on their website, but you will get all of the bonuses listed at it's keaton. com forward slash mastermind, which gets you support templates and courses to kickstart your high level journey and get those first few clients or scale to your next few clients. If you're already a high level customer, you can also get all of those bonuses by upgrading to the next highest plan underneath my link. Instructions for that are also at it's keaton. com forward slash mastermind. So thank you. What, um, you say an hour a week, like you weren't responding to anything on any other day of the week? And were you just like meditating for eight hours a day? Like what did you do during that time?

Brett: 7:36

Dude, it's actually funny. So, um, I mean, the real answer obviously is I was doing what I wanted to do. So yes, I would go out and do stuff. But if I didn't want to do it, I didn't have to. It's got it. It could.

Keaton: 7:46

Yeah.

Brett: 7:47

Um, but, um, no, man, it's actually really weird. And maybe you can attest to this or maybe some of your listeners, it's like, yeah, There does come a point where you don't know what to do. Um, there kind of comes a point too, where you kind of feel like you're eating cardboard because there is like kind of did it. So you're, you feel like you're good. Um, I don't know, do you ever have that? Have you ever felt that where you're just like, what next?

Keaton: 8:10

Uh, in some ways, I always, I've, I think I see it coming more often now because I've had a couple of moments like that. And I tend to not get to that point because I insert some more stuff I want to be doing before it

Brett: 8:24

happens. Yeah. Yeah. So we, I, yeah. Lay the tracks quickly. Yeah. No, there, there's been times where I laid down myself and I've thought like, boy, did I just lay that thing down because I was bored and I wanted to get onto the next thing. Um, but. Yeah, it's, uh, anyway, it's a journey and this is something I've talked with others. You know, you know, Magikai, right? Did you know Magikai? Oh, maybe that was another of the friend that was there we talked about. Well, anyway, him and I talked about this at one point. Wasn't happened. Yeah, it

Keaton: 8:56

wasn't. It was meant. Okay, so you're working like, realistically, like 20 hours a week, but maybe an hour, like an hour of that is the meeting where you address everything and 20 hours is just you like supervising, hanging out with people, building community, whatever you want to do, would you say that's accurate?

Brett: 9:12

That's accurate, yeah, that, that's definitely, um, yeah, that's where it, where it was, yeah.

Keaton: 9:17

Okay, and then, so, COVID happens overnight, do you like take a little sabbatical or are you like, Yeah. So you weren't stressed out of your mind and you need something in a week, uh, that you're going to transition into.

Brett: 9:30

No, no. Thankfully then I was pretty good. So yeah, I took probably like six months where I was just kind of like, what am I going to do?

Keaton: 9:37

Nice.

Brett: 9:38

Um, and yeah, it was, I mean, that time, what a weird time it was, like truly everyone inside, like that's one to look back on. That was definitely strange, but yeah, no parents were going to let their kids go to camps.

Keaton: 9:52

Um,

Brett: 9:52

so, so yeah, we, we kind of, I took a, took a minute. Yeah. Um, but yeah, so, you know, I think, um, just moving to where I did go, right? So, um, always I was really like, I think what I found coming out of that was that was my talent because I tell other people about it and they'd be like, well, how did you do that? Say, well, you know. Like the system of laying out processes of catching things that, uh, you're not aware of. Right. So many entrepreneurs and they just do things, but there's no way to put it in a little Pokemon ball that you can pull it back out later and, and have someone else use.

Keaton: 10:28

Yeah.

Brett: 10:29

Um, so, so yeah, so I kind of rode that wave and, um, yeah, uh, this buddy of mine, so he's a, a, a, a genius marketer, this, this buddy of mine, um, he lived on a little yacht in Baltimore. And we would get together. We'd talk. Um, and he had, you know, a, a digital marketing company for roofs. Um, yeah, he was crushing it, but he kept complaining. He's like, my team is out of whack. Uh, you know, every time I try to do this, something else breaks. And so, you know, I was like, yeah, let's see what we can do. So I volunteered for him for three months and just kind of got my hands dirty. And yeah, in those three months we got, um, got him free, sent him on a vacation, we doubled the revenue. That's it. Um, and I was like, yeah, cool. All right, this works for everybody. Maybe this is a talent. Maybe I should write it.

Keaton: 11:17

Okay.

Brett: 11:18

And what do you say doubled revenue? Like a hundred K to 200 K a month or? Yeah. Well, let's see. So it was more like 60, 70 at the time. Love it. Whatever that method is. Yeah. One

Keaton: 11:29

21. Yeah. Okay. Um, and we'll get more into like the mechanics of what you actually did with him and others, but give us a few other success stories. Like what's the, the archetypal person that you meet? What are they dealing with? And on the other end, what are some results you've been able to create with this?

Brett: 11:48

Yeah. I mean the archetype. So, um, I think really every entrepreneur seems to come to this point, like you're overstressed, you're overwhelmed. You can't sleep. You go to bed thinking about what do I need to do? Um, things popping up, those fires from clients, um, and, and, and just problems in general, like things that get, uh, I don't know, overwhelming complexity. Um, and I would say especially now people with teams, but even individuals, even individuals growing their own thing, um, getting in their own way. It's like, yeah, there's a way out. Um, so it's, it's my job to find it, give them that insight, find out the problems. Um, so that's typically who I work with.

Keaton: 12:30

Yeah.

Brett: 12:31

Um, yeah, wins. Well let's see. So. Um, look, I, I think every, every client is a little bit different. Um, and as I was, we were talking about a little bit, I think, um, that's where it's like the complexities of business go so deep in every single business, right? It's like what you know, as the entrepreneur, uh, to this point, it's, it's a, how you've set it up. It's your, you know, your team, what do they know the vernacular, what's the systems, what's our tech stack, um, you know, what's the clients with the expectations of clients. So that, plus many others. Um, you change one thing and everything else, you know, uh, can change as well. So it's really unique to the client of what is their biggest, hairiest problem. You know, what, what, what is their water in their desert right now? Um, and so you kind of have to trace all that back. You kind of have to get an understanding of all until you can have a clear plan to move ahead. Um, yeah, so that, that's kind of the world I live in. It's, it's a fun puzzle.

Keaton: 13:31

Yeah. Can you give us some recent examples? Like, what was the business and what was the monetary or lifestyle outcome for the founder? Yeah. At the end of working together?

Brett: 13:43

Yeah. Yeah. So most recent, right now I am working with, um, a digital marketing company and she's in tree care service. She's like a unicorn, man. Like she knows everything. Um, so going in, uh, literally the second call we did, um, she was like screaming, crying, yelling on the phone that this can't go on. I can't do this anymore. And I know we've all probably had those moments at times, so she, you know, she was doing it in front of me. Um, yeah, it was just kind of heartbreaking hearing that. Um, and it was cool to hear her voice that, but, but also heartbreaking. So, um, that's where we started. That was about five months ago. Um, and I guess some more of her situation. So I worked with her on a consulting basis back in whatever, late last year, like November, maybe earlier than that, like a year ago. Um, got some things in place. It was good. We got on the right track. So she calls me a year later and she says, Hey, I went from 500. Uh, a RR to, uh, a million a RR. And then within three months after that, she went to 2 million a RR. And she was like, I'm like dying. Mm. Um, yeah. So she pulled me back in. That's when we had that chat. She was, she was struggling. Um, and, um, yeah, I guess the easiest way for her, um, we just basically put in team members that covered, uh, basically installed departments.

Keaton: 15:03

Mm-Hmm.. Brett: Yeah. Put in people. Yeah, she was doing like 19 jobs, dude. Wow. Dude, 19 jobs. And yeah, in content writing alone, she was, there were five people we had to put in, but it was just a systematic, uh, you know, um, yeah, like, like, what are you doing? Why are you doing it? Let's label all of them into responsibilities. And then punting that off, finding the right skillset to plug that hole, getting them up to speed and then letting it fly. So yeah, we placed about 17 people so far with her organization. We've got a couple more still we're trying to put, um, And the result is, yeah, she does not work until 3 p. m. every single day. Nice.

Brett: 15:43

Um, yep, that's a huge one because she's an early riser. Um, she didn't do Pilates, the assistant I put in there, it said first quarter of business Friday Pilates. So she has an instructor coming over doing that. Oh, what else do we have her doing? See the hard part for me too, Keaton, is like, like, torture for me is writing down or funny, like remembering anything I've done legitimately. Like I hate it. I just like solving it, closing the loop, moving to the next, you know, that's kind of what drives me, so, um, yeah, but we've done a lot there. We found some really good talent, um, Yeah. And something that also may apply. It's like what I found doing this, um, so often people like, uh, do you have a team? Small team. Yeah. How many people? Uh, like two. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it makes sense with yours. She does everything. She's a boutique, you know, marketing for our industry. So, um, yeah, man, it's, it's crazy how often teams have drag. Like you have people on your team that really should not be there, um, that in fact are taking you backwards, either emotional vampiring you and your team, or. Gaslighting. Um, so there was a lot of that to root out that I think was a good result. Um, Oh yeah, man. So yeah, it's in the right direction. We've got a sales pipeline set up. So, uh, anyway, well that, that's, that's one example, unboxing. Cool.

Keaton: 17:09

Uh, so going back to the books that kind of taught you all this, you mentioned the e myth. A couple of weeks ago.

Brett: 17:16

What else did you read? Yeah. You know, one really good founding one was work the system. Sam Carpenter is familiar with that. Yeah, that, that one I think was a really good foundational book that I kind of took and morphed into, um, some of my own philosophy. Um, yeah, e myth is definitely, uh, one of them. Four hour work weeks, always in any online, you know, good on, good online entrepreneur's pocket.

Keaton: 17:39

Okay. Mm hmm.

Brett: 17:40

Um. Yeah. And a bevy of others that, you know, I'll have to think about. Um, so yeah, so, so that's cool and, um, I, I know what I'm excited to talk about when we get there is kind of some of my frameworks and models that I've been able to transform those into.

Keaton: 17:58

Um, I want to get there right after this, but traction, have you read that one? Did you like it? Well, how did I forget

Brett: 18:03

traction? Not only traction, but, um, rocket fuel. Okay. Traction I do like. But for me, it is a little. Um, there's things that I change about it, um, particularly on the project management side because most entrepreneurs, they want to go and EOS, right? The, the, the model in there says, well, we're going to slow you down and that's good, but I think there's a happy medium. I think you can go a little faster than that, but absolutely do. Yeah. So you've read traction. I haven't.

Keaton: 18:29

Oh yeah. I mean, I kind of gave up business books a couple of years ago, to be honest. Oh, what? Um, I know it sounds counterintuitive, but like, I just, have you ever heard Peter Drucker say, I don't read business, I read philosophy, I read fiction, I don't read business, and he like, there's a story about him like, ushering someone out of his office that wanted him to read a business book, um, who was like one of the greatest management thinkers of all time. Oh, I know Drucker. Yeah, yeah. I've read his stuff. Whoa. I didn't realize he said that though. Um, and I heard that and I was like, huh, I think at a certain point they all start to repeat each other in some ways. Um, but for me, I was just so head down for like so many years and I never actually took a break from thinking about business and that it's like, it doesn't turn off in the evening and I'm talking to my, my girlfriend, not wife. It's just like, Hey, let's talk about something else that's not work. And, uh, the books were kind of, you know, Rough in that aspect for me. Um, but I, I just honestly, like I asked myself, like, what do I want to be listening to? Um, cause I don't really sit down and read. And if I buy the book and I get two chapters in and I don't like it, I don't feel bad for not continuing to listen to it or whatever, but yeah, I don't, I don't do much business anymore, but if, if there's a specific problem I was trying to solve or a specific recommendation where someone was like, you have to do this. And then I listened to the first couple of chapters and I like it, I'd continue with it, but. I just, I did so many for probably too fast that I, I just got burned

Brett: 20:12

out of them. I can, I can relate to that. In fact, it's, yeah, cause I really don't read any business books either now that I think about it. I'm more, um, dude, it's funny. Like you nailed it. Yeah. Cause I don't, uh, um, I heard her Mosey say something and obviously he's the king of all that, but that's all he reads. It wasn't because of that, that I did it. So yeah, I'm kind of putting my own pieces together here too, but I think you're right. Like early on. You need a framework, you have to have one, and without that, those materials and stuff to add on to it and build it, right? Yeah. But the same thing, like once you have your framework, you're right, it's like incremental 2%, so a whole book is not going to actually

Keaton: 20:50

Yeah, and just going, most of the time for me it's going back to the classics that really did something for me, and referencing a chapter and just reading that and be like, okay, I can pattern match. Mm. Oh, let's, let's reference this other book, okay, this list was helpful, I need to go back and look at that. But like, wait, which classics, which ones, uh, I've like in talking like the digital marketing classics. So for me it would be, and I, or Rosie has a short on this where he's like, I, I, these are my 10 books that I go back and like reread them every year. Um, expert secrets, which I, I should reread recently. Just all of Russell Brunson's books. Um, he missed, I read, I've only read once, but I feel like the, what I got out of that was just. So asymmetrical and like eight hours or five hours of listening to that. And it was just like, it's a framework for understanding everything. Um, so that's, I would say that's a small business classic and then, um, let's say influence. And there's one more I'm forgetting right now. I'll bring it up later if I, I

Brett: 21:59

remember it. Yeah. Well, welcome to my world. I couldn't remember it either. Do you need us? I never got to ask you. That was curious. What, what is your superpower? I know this is your podcast. What is your, cause you, you got this way about you meeting you. Right. Where it's just kind of like chill, low mode, you know, but, but like, you know, you can just tell there's some little spark in there. Like, what is your 10 to 10?

Keaton: 22:23

I don't know. That's interesting. I've, I've been thinking about that a lot recently actually. Cause I, I, if I could go back and tell myself one thing in the first like two to three years of being an entrepreneur, it would be like hire more consultants faster. Um, And I always tell people that I'm like, this is your shortcut to buying more life. Like, you just talk to somebody that's done it, you ask them what to do, and then you do it. And I didn't do enough of that at the beginning, and my journey was a lot slower because of that. Um, which I think is fine, but, um, recently I've, I've just been on a very much like, very intentionally seeking out coaches, seeking out people that can help me. And it's interesting because I feel like, um, the, the coaching doesn't actually help in that following what they're saying. Like maybe there's 20, 30 percent of it is like amazing. And then there's like 70 percent that I'm just like, I don't think that applies to what I actually want. Um, so I don't know if it's my, and I'm, I'm now moving out of those coaching relationships and just like this, like what I have built is actually very unique and. And I was trying to, I had the wrong coach for like a different model, essentially is what I'm saying. Um, I don't know what my superpower is, but I would say it's, it's being able to like just test and iterate and like eventually get down to what it is that I want. But it's, it's very selfish in that way where I'm like business for me is just a lifestyle outcome. Um, that I've, I've said a lot of stuff about like serving people and helping and all that. And it's true, like I love that. I enjoy that. I see, I enjoy seeing people's results. But at the end of the day, recently, especially like with the family, it's just been like, how can I, how can I go get some like mental stimulation and have a lot of fun, become the lord of leverage where I'm just like, I put in an hour and I've created 100, 000 worth of value. Like that's, You know, the aspirational hourly rate, let's say, um, and, and then switch that back. Off and just being like full time dad, husband mode, you know? So definitely not, that's the muscle I'm trying to build. And

Brett: 24:58

I wouldn't say it's very good conversations. Yeah. So, cause it's funny, man, I talked a lot on shares and being in this position, I was telling you, I had twins and for a time I was like moving on the circuit, starting to go talk and I loved it. And that's kind of where I'm obviously here. And again, you know, but, um, so, Hey, I know the family, like, Twin, dude, it just took, I was like, I'll be fine. It's good. No, it shut me down. So another sabbatical, um, but just talking with entrepreneurs, one, one's like yourself and the differences. Um, and you haven't read traction. You probably had red rocket fuel. Okay, dude, that one really changed my own perspective of myself. Um, and if you, if you're familiar, it's like there's a visionary type launch pair and then the integrator, right? Yeah. That's an email too, though. Uh, E Myth is, is, uh, a little bit different, but yeah, I guess it is. They, they lay out the types, don't they? Yeah. It's actually been a while. Let's, uh, re read E Myth together. Yeah, we could just do it on the podcast. Yeah, yeah. Let's just, yeah. Put it in a book. Let's, like, do a close reading. Yeah, but, um, Mr. Rogers style. Oh, right. Yeah, or read the names. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I, um, no, dude, but it, it's funny, so like, for me being on the stage, I do love it, but I hate coming up with my own stuff and having. Like, um, what drives me is being that secondary force, like, uh, you know, my tagline, my fake tag, like the number one, number two or whatever, but just, just helping people find that. I think that goes back to the counseling in me. Um, and yeah, man, like, um, it's just cool watching your thought process, trying to figure out what it is you do so that you can lever it because

Keaton: 26:32

you don't have clarity. Yeah, well, it's interesting because I've, going back to the business book thing, like, part of the reason I don't read it is, I'm like, it's just pretty much just a function of hiring the right people and getting the right clients. Like, your business will suck if you have the wrong people, and it will suck if you have the wrong clients. And There's only so much you can do outside of that from an operations perspective to fix those two major, major issues. And so for me, it's all about how can I hire somebody with the most experience to take care of this thing that I'm doing too much of, or that somebody else is doing too much of. And then just constantly testing that. And, um, you know, I've done a lot of things where I've hired stuff out and then I'm like, no, I actually, I should be doing this because the nature of a creator business model is you're kind of like, it's not a, it's like an inverted pyramid where like you're at the bottom, there's a lot of work that you have to do that isn't outsourceable, um, unless you're building a media company or something like that, which I've considered, but then I'm, you know, I don't, I, A lot of this is coming from, like, I grew up too fast. I had six employees when I was 22. The stress of that payroll wasn't that stressful, but the having to be, like, act like I knew what was going on at that age, uh, stressed me out a lot. And so, at this point, I'm just like, how can I have overseas contractors that know what they're doing? I have to talk to them. Uh, you know, we message daily, but I have calls with them never or, you know, once every couple of weeks or things like that. And, and, um, it's, again, it's just a lifestyle outcome at this point because I've been on the other side of like, I'm going to build a team and have all this, you know, and you think that sounds sexy from the outside, but for me personally, at least at this point in my life, it just doesn't work. It's not what I want. So, let's talk about your operational framework though. What's the Brett Lennon Cole methodology? How have you combined all these books to create the best lifestyle outcomes and monetary outcomes for burnt out entrepreneurs?

Brett: 28:51

Yeah.

Keaton: 28:52

Um,

Brett: 28:53

yeah, so like mine really is, uh, my thing is going as hard and as far as I can on only what can be proved. Only the stuff that is objective, that's logical, that is, uh, real, right? And. Um, for you more as a solopreneur, um, that's helpful to an extent, but it's really helpful once you get past five, 16 members knowing who's doing what, right? Because at that point, um, you know, I think it comes down personally to, to two main things to have smooth operations, right? It's um, you know, it's processes. What is the ironclad exact process that we need to take to make You know, so, um, there's that. And then it's how do you hold people accountable? Ideally the ones that have the skillsets to do each of the things, uh, accountable to executing those to perfection. Right. And so, um, you know, my, my model, it's, it's interesting. I've worked with like 45 businesses, probably 90 percent agencies, you know, and then some other mixed ones, um, and every time I go in and solve problems, Um, you know, I have a process engineering team and we'll take that and we'll map it out. So I'm a huge fan of just visuals. Um, I mean, to geek out, like, uh, for me, like, like math, like two plus two is four, right? So you cannot, like it, it is. Um, and so my whole thing is like, if we can just get to that, no one can argue, right? The, and so therefore it's all just execution. There's no, well, what about this way or that way? And there's also no waiting for that entrepreneur to make decisions and say, should we do this or should we do that? Once it's set, follow the flow. And then add new ones. Um, so it's kind of, yeah, it's, it's kind of adapted. I call it my factory model. Okay.

Keaton: 30:37

But how detailed would that initial process map be? Like, is that, you know, let's say we're onboarding a client. Are you talking about like that type of SOP or is it more internal stuff or?

Brett: 30:49

Yeah, both in all of it. So like, yeah, we're opening up a real rabbit hole here and I can totally geek out, so stop me if it gets a little too. That's what we're here for. Yeah, dude. No. So like, it's been an interesting journey just doing that. So again, going in, solving problems. And then finding the pains and what I found was like, the problems people were having and the way they try to solve it, um, you know, I, I kind of came to a realization that, um, I, I think it's pretty known, like you have a problem, what's really at the root, there was no way to actually see it, right? There was no way to actually like, everybody look at a war map like you would in an army and say, here's where this is, here where this is, you know, let's get definitive and objective. Yeah. Um, and so, um, so yeah, so it was like, I, I kind of akin it to dimensions. So yeah, that's so peas. Yeah. But that's only one dimension. That's one level. So, where does each, how do you map where one SOP then gets finished and leads to the next SOP, and then leads to the next, and how do you know efficiently you're doing all of those? Oh, I see.

Keaton: 31:51

Mm hmm.

Brett: 31:51

Right? And so it's like stacking layers of different types of maps. So this initial

Keaton: 31:55

process you're talking about is every, it's the

Brett: 31:57

entire warmup.

Keaton: 31:58

But

Brett: 31:59

yeah, you, um, that's the ideal, right? That's the ideal, right? So yes, um, but yeah, it depends on like, it really starts where the problem is. So if, uh, you're losing clients, right? Well, yeah, maybe we do want to start at onboarding and make sure that experience is perfect. So get everybody in a rope. Let's get all the information on the table. Let's get, you know, laid out and let's, let's standardize it so that we can say this input turns into this output, this input to this SOP, it turns to that output. Okay. Thanks. And then let's see where it fits in the bigger picture. I see.

Keaton: 32:31

Yeah. Okay. So it starts with the problem. Uh, but I assume a lot of times it's like, here, this is the problem, we're losing clients. And as you said, the real root of that problem, like, has there been a time when you've found out that it's not at all where you thought it was?

Brett: 32:46

Every single time, dude. Every single time. And cause if, if, yeah, first off, if they knew where it was, they wouldn't mean, right? But, um, Yeah. I would say most problems are more than anything into miscommunication or, um, just intangible things that like people assume this person's going to do this at this time. Right. Or, um, yeah, so, um, yeah, yeah. Every single

Keaton: 33:13

time. Yeah. And do you have an example of that? Like someone came to you with X problem and the solution was something you never dreamed of.

Brett: 33:21

Ooh. Yeah. Great question. Let me think. Um, um, there is an it company. You know, and they were trying to say, you know, their team member was not doing well, right? And so they wanted me to come in and get a fresh look and analyze, like, is he really who he says he is? Is he an A player? Is it B player? And I started talking to him, you know, and then I said, well, like, yeah, he, he started laying out his process, what he did day to day. So we started mapping that and looked, yeah, well, anyway, tracing it all the way back, a hundred percent, the issue was actually the owner, right? Because he was not laying. He was not being clear exactly on what the outcome was to be, and therefore the guy didn't have enough information to actually execute, you know, execute correctly. Um, yeah, so I guess that comes to mind and probably as we proceed I'll come up with it to think of another as it makes.

Keaton: 34:13

How do you break that to the owner when you're like, hey. Oh, dude. You look fat in that dress.

Brett: 34:19

Uh, is podcast? Yeah, you're fucking up. The fuck are you doing? Do you realize like you just hung this guy out to dry and it's your fault? So no wonder you're feeling it, right? No wonder clients leaving you because, yeah, so, so definitely things like that. And um, yeah, part of my job is that it's a weird artistic and scientific mix of like me trying to get what is the actual thing. Um, but yeah, a part of my, I guess, so we talked superpowers earlier. Part of my own is like, I'm just really good at reading people. I'm really like, I can just feel it. It's weird to say, but I can just feel it. So fine. Like, uh, in our sessions, like I get into it and I can collect info and I can just be like, yeah. So, so it is, it's kind of, um, putting those two pieces together and got it.

Keaton: 35:07

Yeah. Yeah. So what would you say most agencies are struggling with when they come to you and where does the solution tend to be?

Brett: 35:17

Yeah. Well, no, still it's hard because every agency really is different. They're, they're like businesses in general are complex agencies. Right. And the demands, especially these days of clients, uh, and I guess even the competition in their industry, like it is, it's, uh, it is complex, but I would say most of the time it's churn. I mean, we know that clients leave in all the time, so, um, that's typically the starting point. And then probably tied with that just is, is burnout. It's overwhelming. These guys just crank, you know, agency owners. Yeah. Yeah.

Keaton: 35:52

So where do you. I'm, I'm a burnt out agency owner that has more churn than I want. What's the first thing you ask me and where do you go to find out where the problem is?

Brett: 36:04

Yeah, well first thing I do is bring your entire team on first because what you think it is and what you're telling me about your team is, there's a different story, right? Yeah. There's tons of them. So it's collecting all the picture and bringing it all together in one central spot. Um, but I don't know. Yeah, let's, let's workshop. Let's pretend. I mean, you own and sold an agency. Let's.

Keaton: 36:23

Yeah. Let's do a sample one. So let's say. I'm in, um, the home services niche and I'm doing like, you know, between 10 and 20k a month and starting to bring on like the first people and I'm frustrated because I can't, it seems like I just keep getting pulled into fulfillment every day and the quality of the fulfillment and the results seems to be going down. Um,

Brett: 36:55

Yeah. Oh, dude. It's so funny because literally 9am this morning, Greg, if you're watching, uh, he's a home service agency and we just did a session exactly on this. Greg is a killer at sales, right? And that's one nugget of, you know, difference that you have to keep in mind because his hour versus someone else who's good at something else, if he just spends on the phone, right, that's looking to add up to actual revenue and he can just buy his way out of the problem later. Right. Right. Right. So, um, and you know, I'm taking that blueprint and then we'll kind of play it. With yours. But, um, yeah, he was like, yeah, I'm going to do that. This particular one this morning, he was exactly pretty much this person. And the result was this, he was stuck on his, his own self. He was like piddling. He was like, yeah. Um, you know, I keep getting sucked back in. I keep having clients that I have to talk to, you know, answering questions and only I know the answers to. Right. So digging it down, of course he knew he needed a CSM. So we already had that search going. And, um, yeah, it was like, basically he was, he was, he was like, yeah, she's a little out of my budget. You know, I found it pretty decently. She's a little out. I'm like, bro, dude, like you pay a little bit more and you can sell your way out of this problem. What are you doing? I mean, you got a superpower you should be using now. So yeah, that's one example. And walking away, he's going to go higher today. Uh, and then for him to, to get him out of that, that thing, um, in the past, he's hired people. He's had a big churn problem. So now I'm saying Greg, but still in the hypothetical, right, I guess, but, but he, um. Uh, yeah, like turnover happens and then he has to start from zero, which is stupid. Anything you do, you should never have to do again. Like anything you do, the problem is most people don't have that second meta layer. So someone reminding them to be like, record this or document this. So, um, yeah, the system set up for that is like, okay, train her every day. You're going to do a session, you're going to tell her to batch everything so you don't get overwhelmed and piddled and, and cut with a thousand cuts, right? First week, probably not. But after that. Um, we're going to incentivize her so that, uh, whatever you would have paid her, you're going to cut back 10, 20 percent and then pay the rest of that after three months if she stays, because you're putting a lot of time in and then every one of those meetings, not only are you going to bring your team on so they hear it and get lessons from it, um, but you're going to record everything and put it in the library. So if you do have to rehire, you never have to do it again, going over your client list, going over, you know, the idiosyncrasies. Um, and that alone right there should nominally get him out, but if it doesn't, he's fortified to never, you know, to, to be out at least for a couple of, so. I see. And how big is his team at this point? Yeah. So, um, he was one of the rare ones that actually had an org chart already listed out, which was helpful for me. So yeah, right now he had, I think it was like nine, nine people. I think he's like 60, but, but he is just a seller problem for him again, his back end fulfillment and him having to be apart. So, um, So, yeah, I mean, but it's thing. Yeah.

Keaton: 39:49

What do you do? Like, let's say someone comes to you and they're like, we're just not getting enough leads for this client. Are you able to solve that problem?

Brett: 39:58

Well, if it's a systematic operational problem, which I think most are. Yeah. I mean, uh, but it depends what's the lead source, right? If it's Google ads, well. Pretty competitive right now. Uh, are they spending enough budget? Yeah. So obviously there's some probably higher end problem solving that you can do depending on what it is, but I know for a fact I can find the problem. I probably, I don't know if I can solve it. But if I can't, I know I can find the person who can't.

Keaton: 40:22

Yeah.

Brett: 40:22

I mean, that's 90 percent of it is identifying the problem. It is. It's funny because that, that is a realization pretty recently too, is just with clarity, things are easy. Maybe I read that somewhere, but, but it is, it's finding it and getting clear on it. So you can, you know.

Keaton: 40:39

So what's the model organizationally wise to take someone from maybe a solopreneur or a partnership with one contractor? Like what revenue levels do people typically have to start hiring more people? And then what do you suggest that org chart look like to stay lean? People aren't stuck, you know, stuck in slack me hell all day. Um, but they're also not paying, you know, 80 percent of what they're collecting to team and software, et cetera.

Brett: 41:11

Yeah. I mean, I, I probably differ a little bit on this because I, I do understand the lean model like we'll keep everything tight and lean, but I also feel like you got to believe in yourself. Right. And if you're going to do it, do it the absolute best and then just, just keep scaling. Right. And so, um, you get the economies of scale once you get past that 70, 80 mark. Right. So if you're asking me, if you can get the risk, if you trust yourself, if you do your stuff well, like you have, you know, you get results for clients, um, I, I personally feel like you should, uh, like, again, I'm, I'm a geek out here. Like everything you do, if you're a solo entrepreneur or if you run a, a, you know, a 2 million a year agency or whatever, right? It's, it's whatever you're doing is a task. You're doing things right now. Uh, what is that thing? What other, what skill would that require? Right? Is it something rote? I call them non skill tasks that you can just document and hand off. Is it? You know, a semi skilled where you can find someone they're kind of around, you know, or is it skilled and you absolutely have to do it, you have to do the surgery on the patient. Um, a lot of people aren't aware of that, but. Yeah, it's like, um, I think outsource everything. I think delegate absolutely everything so you can keep thinking forward or do the high leverage stuff. You know, um, uh, that's how I think, you know.

Keaton: 42:33

Yeah, but what is, what does the org chart look

Brett: 42:36

like? Oh yeah, no doubt. Um, my org chart, so I found a lot of operators do it a little bit differently. EOS does it a little differently. Um, but my operational org chart is exactly like this. So it's, it's CEO, uh, if you're fortunate to have someone like me, a COO or, uh, or integrator to kind of be your filter, um, and then it goes from left to right. Uh, marketing and sales or marketing in a separate box of sales. Uh, so yeah, marketing sales, then fulfillment and it's admin, right. And that includes financials and just all the administrative behind the scenes tasks. Um, yeah. And that, the reason I lay it out that way, it's like marketing brings people in, sales closes those people, fulfillment gives them what you told you, you give them admin, everything else. Yeah.

Keaton: 43:20

So then what roles do you have under each one of those four functions

Brett: 43:26

of the business? Yeah. So, I mean, past that again, it becomes a factor of what, what do you got, show me what you got and then let's put it where it makes sense. So for the company I'm, I'm, you know, COOing for right now, um, she was doing a lot, uh, you know, it's a function of whatever you promise the customer, frankly, um, it's, it's that. And then on the admin side, it's a function of like, what kind of, what bullshit are you doing? Like what kind of things that suck or someone has to do to keep the business running and They're happening. So just document them and make sure they're on somebody's, uh, you know, uh, yeah, and make a role, right, or fit them into a role. But the key thing is, uh, getting the people with the right skill sets that can do it.

Keaton: 44:08

Got it. So what I'm hearing is, it's not really about the role itself. It's about, you know, Defining what tasks need to get done and then creating a role

Brett: 44:18

for them. I think you found your superpower, Keith. Rising, yep, um, that would be correct. Yep.

Keaton: 44:25

Okay. Um, follow up to this, have you ever found that clients lie to you in order to save face and, you know, like they say, normal, like management consulting, huge retainers, it's like, they just hire consultants so they have someone to blame when things go wrong. Yep. Yep. Have you seen that kind of, um, scenario or where someone's like, just obfuscating the truth so that you, they, they don't have to face what's actually going on, but they're acting like they are?

Brett: 45:00

Ooh. Well, it sounds like you probably get a few of these. I was like, um, no dude, usually when people bring me in, like, if you're lying to me or lying to yourself, you're fucking, you're throwing money away. So if someone wants to pay me to feel good about themselves, like fine, but, um. I can't think of any particular instance, um, but, but yeah, there, sometimes there's those logical hangups. I want this and then I'm doing this action and it's like, well, you're lying to yourself. That's probably it. But, um, yeah, I probably owe it to my counseling background. That is what I thought I would do. I thought I would be like, I'm really good with kids and people, like I said, you know, and like, I kind of wanted to make that difference in the world, um, until I didn't when I saw it was actually happening. But. Yeah, pretty, pretty good. I'd say it's sussing it on his head and being like, why do you think that to the N logical degree, like just separating it until it's like, Got it. You're lawyered. But they, have they ever fired you because you've, you've pushed them too hard? Um, no, you know, because one of my, I would say another thing that I like to make sure I do is like, I'm here to make your life easier, right? If you're a CEO, I don't want to say, okay, now you need to do X, Y, Z, go, go, go. Right? I am a, who on your team do you have that can do it? If they can't do it, where's the skill I need to find so that they can't. Yeah. Right? So, um, it, yeah, so I, I, you know, it's funny. It's also, so I had another client I just wrapped an engagement with. Um, very successful marketing agency. It's been like nine years, um, limos, actually. Nice. Yeah. Every niche out there. Right. Yeah. Um, that's kind of one of the things he said at the end. He's like, I didn't realize how much I was not utilizing my team. He would keep information from them thinking, well, they don't need to know this. And I was like, dude, just tell everyone they're here. And that gives them more context to make decisions that you don't have to make. So over time, he just kind of felt that. Like, oh, yeah, I guess you're right. What was I hiding? Yeah. Um, which was cool feedback here. Nice.

Keaton: 47:00

What about partnerships? Have you ever seen a Sounds like we'd get to do some counseling. Yeah. Have you ever mediated, uh, uh, a partnership like dissolving or resolving differences? And can you tell

Brett: 47:15

us about that? Dude, great question. And this is one I haven't thought of in a while. No, I got a client that was A little bit different model. Uh, yeah, this is a while ago. So he was doing, he was crushing it from this upper profile he had built. So he just getting in leads and then he was outsourcing the work. Um, so they had a team like 10, what'd they even do? Cause his, his name, it wasn't necessarily, it was something with coding or something. Um, and it was him and his partner. So his partner was from Yale, he was like a Yale background, very smart guys. Okay. Yeah, and um, it was the typical partner thing, basically like, what are you, I'm doing all this, what are you, well I'm doing all this, what are you doing? You should be, so yeah dude, it was, it was interesting, they hired me, and um, I don't think I said but like 10 words, practically, I just got to, you know. Prod and ask questions to see what's your side. Okay. You heard him. And, um, it's funny. That's what counseling really is. It's, uh, Did I tell you, was this you? I think, I feel like I told this to someone, but like, dude, I can't remember. Anyway, Counseling at the end of the day in a counseling sense. Mm hmm. It's, uh, if you do it with two people, it's getting two people to talk about, no, no, no, no, no, that's not what he means. That's when he does that. That's not what he means. That's not what he's saying. He's saying this. Oh, cool. Okay. Oh, you know, so it's like, it is cutting. Yeah. And then when you do counseling with you, it's really doing that same thing to yourself. When I feel this, Oh, I didn't realize that this thing that I've done forever, this way and felt this way and thought was this way, right, is, is causing this or this. Yeah. So

Keaton: 48:49

interesting.

Brett: 48:50

Yeah. So in a business partnership, there's no different. We're humans. We have emotions. We're driven by emotions. We can't control them, which is very hard to do. And um, these two, it was cool. Yeah. Yeah. By the end. They're best friends. Yeah. I heard you should follow up with these guys. Um, but, um, yeah, as far as I understood, they said you saved it because now we understand we have clarity of what we're doing. Um, yeah. They're really cool guys. I like this. Yeah. I told you, I need you to pull it out of me because I just, I forget.

Keaton: 49:20

Yeah. Um, when you said, I was worried about the future of this podcast when you said you couldn't remember things. You don't like remembering things. I hate it. You know, for

Brett: 49:30

me, it's like, dude, I'm a loop closer, right? Yeah. So am I doing your business? That's true. Yeah. It's like open loops cause this anxiety wave in every entrepreneur, and you can't stop thinking about it till it's closed. Some never get to close it. I worked with one actually very famous, uh, guru, not, not very famous, but like, I don't know. He's, he's famous. You're famous. Yeah. He probably wouldn't know. But he's, um, Really good dude. Really, really good at what he does. Um, but he just opens like 10 loops a day and maybe closes too. Got it. Yeah. So over time it's like, you're waking up on Mondays being like, dang. So, um, for me it, it, it is, it's like, I just have to close loops so I can go to bed and go to sleep and yeah, that's one of them.

Keaton: 50:08

Got it. When you work with the client, they come on board. How does the, the fee structure work and how do you make sure they're a good fit? Because I, what you were saying earlier about none of those clients really lying to you, they're all fairly like. You don't actually want to solve the problem. I think it's honestly, it's a function of you being really good at client selection or perhaps a lot of your business, I think comes from referrals. So it's like the good people know the good people and you don't have to deal with these clients that are ironically like rooting against themselves and like doing a lot of self sabotage, which. It happens a lot when you're not, uh, vetting your clients well enough. So I think that's what's happening. But um, the, what was the question I asked?

Brett: 50:55

Well, cause I, I see what you're getting at. You're, you know, as, as, um, how do you select clients that aren't going to be a pain in your ass that you, you cannot get results for. And, um, yeah, You know, sure. Do you deal with it? You get, uh, well, especially with your YouTube channel and stuff, you get a lot of warm people that already trust you so you can get there faster. We just cut right through it. And what, what is the real problem? Well, that's not it. Why is that? No, no, no. That's the real problem. Um, and yeah, I've been really fortunate to have a lot of really smart, really, you know, um, successful people, especially in the agency space that just, uh, are in the weeds and they need perspective. Yeah. Got it. Yeah. Yeah. Makes it easier for me, you know? Um. Yeah. Yeah, and I know you were talking about, you know, um, how I work and the structure and all that.

Keaton: 51:42

Oh yeah, yeah, when people, when you bring someone on, how do you, what are the green flags you're looking for in the discovery process? And then also, how do you price it, how do you determine how long you'll need to work together, etc.

Brett: 51:59

Yeah, no, I do mine pretty standard, again, another loop closed, so I don't work with anyone and, um, it's a three month minimum. I can't really, I can't make magic within three months. A lot of these things you change it today and then you have to, you know, the testing iteration. Um, yeah, so like green flags, red flags. I guess I've come across a few like real assholes that I'm, oh yeah, dude, there was one. So, yeah. This, this one actually was a cold. He came in through one of my, you know, courses that I had up that I, I, um, I'm kinda reformatting, I'm gonna put that back up. But, um, he was a VC capital.

Keaton: 52:34

Mm-Hmm.

Brett: 52:34

He had four businesses and he was just a go, go, go, right? Um, and it started, right. He wanted, um, like he, he loved it. He was like, yeah, I need, I need all of this boxed up so I can hire and scale and go Well, so we did it, got an NGR on it. We mapped it all out. And then scope creep, right? Changed it. No, no, no. I wanted more detail. I want SOP. So, um, anyway, end of the day, he, he was an asshole. That was a red flag. Anytime you say one thing, we document it and it changes. I'm like, I can't like, yeah. So they always rough. Um, but on the flip side of that, every client, there is a scope creep because you do start with being very thirsty for a drink of water in the desert in this side. And then soon it's like, well, that's just water, but what's the next, like, there's something else. I need a camel to get out of here.

Keaton: 53:22

Yeah.

Brett: 53:22

Um, so, so it's an interesting, it's just a constant problem solving, man. It's on to the next. And that's why I think I just close. I just shut it off. Okay. Well, I'll come back. Yeah. Yeah. I get bored. And what's the pricing like? Like if I were to hire you today? Yeah. Yeah. Um, I charge 6, 000 a month. Um, and then any labor that we have to bring in that you don't have on your team, um, I'm very good at finding. The right people to get it done, uh, quickly. Got it. So, so that's it. Um, and that's what I've traditionally done by the way. And maybe I mentioned this too, like my new business that as I kind of had the opportunity to come back out and, Um, solve more problems is, is more on the placement side. Um, I find there's three, three roles that can make the biggest difference in getting people back their time. So back during my, um, uh, baseball days, uh, back when I wrote a book called the shadow you VA, and it was my whole system of how I got myself out with a VA and then brought my team, uh, to those hourly meetings. That was kind of the genesis of it all. Um. Yes. So just how I documented everything, how nothing got missed, um, and, and so that will people that are kind of doing little stuff, it's not, it's not the five or 10 minutes it takes you to do the thing. It's the 20 minutes it interrupts you, the five, 10 minutes to do it, you know? So it's a bandwidth eater. So that's just pretty quick. Yeah. And, um, so. Shadow VA is someone I put in, they do it. Second is the DevOps. There's so much tech stuff these days and in agencies that you just have to figure out that can waste a whole day. So, um, Yeah, these guys, they're just figure it outers, uh, part time, uh, that, that, and then lastly operational guys, operations managers. Yeah, yeah, so, so three main roles, whether it's the guys I bring or not. I think any agency can benefit, A, uh, from someone just doing the non skilled stuff. They're a SOP follower, which should be mostly anyone anyway. Um, but yeah, DevOps, someone that you can just throw tech problems and say, figure this out, connect these softwares, set it up, right. Uh, the ones that we have code, right. They come from that background and then yeah, operations managers, which are trained in my factory model, right. So I train them how to use the tools and how to map things out so that like. It's objective. Um, so that's something I'm working on now, probably the next month, you know, I'll kind of have that all set up. So. As far as a course, you mean? Well, it's a staffing agency. So basically just staffing roles that get you free. Yeah. Very cool.

Keaton: 55:59

Tell me more about the Shadow VA position. Um, I feel like this is one of my struggles where I Maybe I'm more cynical in that, like, I'm just, I'm never going to replace myself as, I just expect this person to kind of function at 70 percent of what I could do. Is that a reasonable expectation, or what, what specifically does the Shadow VA do? For context right now, I'm thinking there's a number of messages I get a day that I just don't trust anybody else to respond to, and I don't know if I ever will. Um, that would be nice. Like I just, this is the, you know, boo hoo, you're an influencer, get used to it. But like, I just get so many per day and I have someone managing a majority of those and that's fine. But I'm like, I need someone where, where it's like, they're a bit more proactive in terms of like, I need someone, I need you to reach out to this person, schedule the podcast, ask all the questions. Thanks. And I just, I haven't found that person yet. So tell me about the, the shadow VA in general, and then any advice maybe you

Brett: 57:13

have for me. Dude. Yeah, dude, again, it's problem solving. Let's do it. Like I'm stoked. So, um, okay. So you're telling me Keaton, that you have an end result that you want done, which is podcast automatically booked, and then you're also telling me you're doing it already. All right. And then, uh, so, um, yeah, given that you could document every step. Right? Like, if we did this now and, you know, I had some tools that we, you know, we could do it later. I'd be totally stoked to do that. Um, A is defining what is that end. So podcasts like this, they have something interesting, right? So there's a qualification process in it that would have to be baked in. Um, like the key here is this, if there is an existing process and it gets done anyway, it is totally delegatable. It's totally outsourceable.

Keaton: 57:54

Yeah.

Brett: 57:55

Um, and there are parts, yes, uh, that maybe only you can do, sure. But there's a lot of other stuff that you probably don't have to do. Right? Um, so, again, let, like, let's geek out and, and, um, dude, I, like, let me just ramble here and please, please make this make sense if, uh, it doesn't. Um, yeah, so, so step one, we would lay it out, right? I would say, here's the sausage, tell me exactly how the sausage is made. What's step one? You might start one, oh, no, actually it's, ah, nope. Right? Eventually we get there, we get it all laid out. Um, and then secondly, each of those steps that we'd identify. We need to classify, and I kind of alluded earlier, but I think expanding on it would be helpful here for that, that shadow step. So anything you do in that series is an individual task. It takes some time to do, right? So we need to look at that with a microscope, each task, and we need to classify it in one of three categories. Bottom, non skilled task, semi skilled task is two, and then skilled task is three. And the analogy I use for those, um, Imagine walking into a surgeon's office, the secretary, right? She's following, here's the checklist. Like anyone off the street can do that. That's a non skilled task. Uh, in the surgeon's room, you have the semi skilled people who do all of the prep and the setup. So they sanitize, you know, they sharpen, they put the tools down and no one can just do that. That takes some certification. However. There's probably a lot of them. They're graduating out of school every time, so you can find those people fairly easily. You can probably even have your secretary have an SOP to help you find those people to replace them. So, um, if you, uh, if you're a, yeah. And then what's the last thing is the surgeon, the person who is only the one that has to make the cut.

Keaton: 59:34

Yeah.

Brett: 59:35

So it's really a process of laying all that, that out. So everything is done. Surgeon walks in, gloves come on, make the cut. Surgeon walks out. Right? So while you may not be able to get out of it fully. You shouldn't have to do 80, 90 percent, but it's probably just all kind of bunched in your head. And my last point, right, on that is qualification, um, which, which is, um, there, there's probably an element to you be like, well, they wouldn't know what they want, right? They wouldn't know if this is a good guest or not. I can't outsource that. You can, there's a tool for that as part of, um, you know, what we do and I'm going to rabbit hole that. In a second to another project and come back, I got contacted or actually sent, uh, in my network, a lawyer is a national law firm, right online there in Boston and LA top immigration law firm. And what they wanted to do, um, yeah, the problem they had was, um, all these callers would call in and they'd have to qualify. And like they're in house lawyers, uh, because it can, it can get very complicated so much so like an Iranian male, are you 25 or older or younger? Uh, because that makes a difference on section 25. 7a, like that kind of detail. Um, so they had a, a, a qualification team and at least two hours a day for partners were getting taken up from calls for them saying, can we help them or not? So it didn't really work. Right. So we turned that, I'll have to show it to you one day. We made a beast decision tree tool. Right? And all we did, like, and dude, they couldn't, they're like, no, no one can figure it out. I was like, no, I think I can figure it out.

Keaton: 1:01:11

Hmm.

Brett: 1:01:11

A beast of a, of a decision tree tool. Um, and the whole point is just taking the highest leverage questions that weed out the most people. Right? Uh, at each layer and just turning it down to yes or no questions. Right? And we got it down to where there was only like four or five cases we actually needed to send to a partner. Um, and it saved them probably millions a year just in whatever their fees are. So in your case, I bet you we can decision tree out it. The reason I know that you've done it enough times where you just do it now. So like, yeah, they're cool. Um, yeah, they have some influence. They, they have some cool story. Um, Those are things you just automatically do because you've done them.

Keaton: 1:01:50

Yeah.

Brett: 1:01:50

But if someone slows you down and said, well, why? Well, because Okay. Let's lay those out. And then why these ones? Um, you can have somebody follow that decision tree. And then find the clues. Like, well, they're Facebook. It says this. They've been on these, these, these. Anyway. Got it. And

Keaton: 1:02:07

talk to me about hiring those three different roles, like what's, I'm, I'm searching right now for somebody that's very skilled to, I'm sort of considering the media company route where someone's just making videos on my channel about high level or other things. Um, and I would say they, they're like, to use your surgeon analogy, like, they're, they're in residency, like, they're ready to start actually practicing and doing the stuff and, and finding that person is very, very different than finding the SOP secretary person. What would you, what advice do you have for the differences between hiring there

Brett: 1:02:55

versus the skilled? Dude, I love this question. Yeah, because a lot of people think when you get the surgeon level only they can do the work. You're right. It's not true. You just hire another surgeon. Yeah, it costs more. So how do you find that person? Um, Like, the way I do it, if I were to come in and say, like, you have to start with the customer. You have to start with the end moneymaker. What do they want first, right? And once you know what they want, now we have criteria to say, well, you know, so, so heart patients, right? Okay. We need a heart surgeon. We need someone who's been and has those credentials.

Keaton: 1:03:26

Yeah.

Brett: 1:03:26

Um. I would say in your case, it's more like, you know, like media is like, how many people can they bring? There's kind of an extra thing to it. So does the surgeon bring 20 clients and it pays for itself? That's a part of the strategy I would want to know. Um, and another question I would have for your instance is like, are we segmenting Keaton? Like go high level section, this, that, and if that's so it's very easy, right? Because we just have an hour long conversation of each segment and then we really dial in. What does that mean? What do they want from that? What is the end goal of the people actually watching those channels? Do it however many times. Now we have our job description and now you can start interviewing and saying, can you do it? Now you're looking next for personality, right? And that's kind of where the finer second, third round. Um, and then you get to testing and always, by the way, anyone at home, when you hire someone, do a two week trial, do a two week trial, um, see if you get the results you think for you. I don't know. Maybe there's, there's probably a way to unroll that. But.

Keaton: 1:04:25

No, yeah, the two week trial thing is huge. It's great. Um, and then, like, as far as rolling those job descriptions out, are there platforms that you like or hacks that you use, uh, both for skilled and unskilled? Because it sounds, it sounds like that's part of the secret sauce, is being able to get these people fast to the founders who need them.

Brett: 1:04:48

Yeah, I mean, um, okay, like, me personally, if I'm doing a custom search, Like usually for me, by this point, if I just talk to you, I can get what I need. Uh, and then right off that meeting, something happens with me where I just go blank, I don't even know where I go or what I just start posting where I think I can find it. LinkedIn more professionals, right? Indeed's more in the U S. Um, you know, professional and there's a higher weeding process a lot of times than that.

Keaton: 1:05:15

Mm hmm.

Brett: 1:05:15

I mean, I'm just off the top and again, it'll be like up work, you know, sometimes it depends overseas. Um, but for the roles I placed, the ones that we're working with, it was a, um, uh, best worker I've ever had, dude. Best worker. This guy is like, he's the kind of guy you're like, Hey, can you set this up? Uh, he's in the Philippines and, and the next day he would have built like the whole thing. You've ever had people like that where you're just like, okay, let's, let's keep going. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, dude. So we partnered, that's what we're partnering with this. So he's, uh, in an MBA program over there, has a lot of talent. Um, his specialty is dev ops and operations. So he's just like finding these crazy people like nice. Yeah. Like him. Um, so, so a lot of that, if it's those roles, I kind of want to know on type thing. It does. They attract like,

Keaton: 1:06:01

yeah, yeah. But, um, That's really cool. Yeah. I had a similar idea. I didn't end up chasing it down, but my designer is this type of person. I just randomly found him on a freelancer contest, if you know what that is. So the freelancer. com and oh, freelancer. You can do a, you can do a contest where you're like, Hey, design this logo. And like 80 percent of them are just like AI, whatever. And yeah, but you can literally put a bounty of like 50 and you'll have 500 ideas, which is, It's valuable in and of itself But I had tried a few different contests and then I found this one and I I was like, I like this. He's obviously worked on it. He put some thought into it that it said, can you tweak these two things? And it was like 30 seconds later, it was done. It seemed like 30 seconds, probably more like five minutes. And I was like, okay. And I just kept sending him more and more stuff. And he is, he's my superpower to answer your question because it doesn't matter what it is. It's like, he was like, Oh, I don't know how to use landing page builders. Like I've never done it. And I was like, okay. Can you try and two days later we have like this beautiful landing page. I'm like, okay.

Brett: 1:07:14

Let's talk more. No, it is. And it is like, you were talking earlier about leverage. How do you become the one hour and turn it into hundreds of thousands of hours? Yeah. I've always had this model that, you know, it's like, um, are you familiar with like, uh, gear ratios and all that? Like you ride a bike and you change gears. And MIT has one where they lay out a bunch of gears and it, um, the last gear should turn by the end of the universe. And they predict it would have so much power, it would flip the world on its head. Because this, this one spins, you can look it up on, you know, YouTube, it's like, if I spin this first one, it's gonna go, the second one, third one, toot, toot, toot. Oh, okay. And so, so, if you push from this side, of course you're doing this. But the higher you can get up in that gear ratio, if you push that fourth level, you just barely touch it. And this, this one goes, right. And so that, that's always kind of how I've thought of myself as an integrator too. It's like, I want to be the top. I am the top

Keaton: 1:08:12

thing

Brett: 1:08:12

where entrepreneurs whisper it to me like in one minute and then we filter it and then everything down the org chart just, okay. And when you get people like that, it's the oil, right? It's the, yeah.

Keaton: 1:08:25

Yeah. Any hacks for like finding the person that isn't searching for the job? Um, well, tell me more what you mean, just in case there's a couple of ways I could take that, but yeah, like for example, this one, uh, I tried someone didn't work out like for the content production side. And part of that was my fault, but like, I want someone who like knows high level, but also is charismatic enough to show up on camera and has some experience like that, because it's. I just, I can't babysit the process for months and months before they actually make a video. So, it's like this skill of like, why would they do it for me when they could just go do it for themselves? Finding, finding the person that is in that intersection of like, maybe needing the money now, and, but also like, protecting myself, I don't know, there's so much that goes into that. But every time I sit down to make a video, I'm like, yes, this is, this is a high leverage task, but how could I, my brain, that's just the way it works. It's like, how could I love this even more? Somebody else is making the videos. I'm providing the funding and the expertise and the, the thumbnails and the titles and all of that, which I have a really good system for, um,

Brett: 1:09:43

anyway, I'd love to hear your take on that. Yeah. I mean, I may need some more detail, but I think I understand what you're asking. It's like you're making a common fallacy that I also see in entrepreneurs. And I had a conversation with one of my clients about this exact thing. We put the team off. Right. And, and he's like, look, we're like, it was actually kind of a moment. He was just like, look, like we're making this much and they don't have any of it. They don't get any of that upside. How are they going to be motivated to actually do it? Kind of the same argument. Right. And it's a fallacy because you as an entrepreneur, have you ever worked like a corporate job or anything? So you've always been right. Entrepreneur mindset. Well, employee mindset, the main difference is they want, yeah, of course they want money, of course they want, that's like lottery thing. They want security, right? And um, and so if they can make that security now, A, B, um, to kind of go to your question of finding people that aren't looking versus people that are, like, are you, for clarification, are you saying you're looking for people that are already kind of proven and therefore

Keaton: 1:10:41

Yeah, they know high level. They can make videos. And they don't want to do it themselves, they want to work for me, like that's a, that's a unicorn. Yeah,

Brett: 1:10:49

so it, it is, but um, okay, your leverage there is the third one, right? Is they are tired of the bullshit, right? And so, um, like, one point I do have to establish as a logical piece, I'm of the feel like I've not never, but like, like people that aren't motivated to do things, you're going to hire them to do things and expect them to do things. Like, um, I, I love when people come and it's like, you can just feel that heartbeat of I'm ready. Let's go. I want this. Right. Um, so I, I typically look for that. I don't really trust people that are just kind of like, well, what do you, you know, um, yeah, the, the motivation, the incentives are very big because I know they'll keep going. Right. Absolutely. Um, but yeah, for your specific case in this, like, I see, I see what you're saying. You need someone somewhat proven. So maybe they're like 10, 20 percent of where you're at, but they know they'll never get here without immense effort in the pain that you've gone through in building that backend system.

Keaton: 1:11:51

Maybe. I don't know. Like it, it's, I've considered, you know, con like it's a contract thing where they're just enjoy it. Like maybe there's some sort of X factor that's just makes that worth it for them. Yeah. Yeah.

Brett: 1:12:03

Um. Well, what's your goal in it? It's, it's, so you have many media companies doing, you know, doing each, right? Well, not necessarily. My goal is just to,

Keaton: 1:12:12

to not have to have the channel reliant on me sitting down any given week to make a video.

Brett: 1:12:19

Dude, so funny. Yeah. I, um, a buddy of mine runs a, he's got like a hundred thousand, I don't know, but he, he does like, you know, One Piece, you ever heard of that anime? Very niche. Okay. All we talk. Gotta beat the algorithm, put out content. Um. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I don't know the full again. So for the sake of this, but that's the lever point I see. I feel like you don't want to do that. That's a pain for you. There's probably someone else that it's a, they, all they want to do is be on camera and teach people what they know. They just don't want to, they just want to show up, do it and get off.

Keaton: 1:12:50

Yeah.

Brett: 1:12:51

Right. And if they know they're not going to really.

Keaton: 1:12:54

So what's your hack for finding those people? Because maybe they're not looking on, they're not browsing Indeed every day for that kind of thing.

Brett: 1:13:03

You know? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, what I would do, it goes to two things. One at the lower label layer, which is every recruiting is like, if you're a marketer and you market, you got to make it sound really sexy, right? Where it's like, Oh, dang, it pops off the page. I want that. Right. So job ads are just like that. Um, there's got it. It's like, Oh yeah. You know, I see a lot of people, you must do the very rigid, I hate that. Why would anyone want to come and work for you and give everything, most of their day to you to try to make you successful? Right? So, A, it's kind of like, I go blank when I write those, I'm not even joking, I just like can feel it and I'm just like, boom, I seem to weed out, you know, and attract. But the other part for you, I think you're probably looking more at cold outreach. You're probably watching a lot of who's who and you're probably looking at that bottom 25 percent echelon. Cause you've been fortunate to break that threshold and a lot of those, they're still looking up saying what's, what's the rate. So that's, that's a pretty good deal for somebody in the right spot that's just like, Oh, tomorrow I could just have this, you know. Um, and then you got a lot of upside you can give if they're successful, especially with the multiples that you would probably do it in a media company then. Yeah. To get a little piece. It's a good give and take. You

Keaton: 1:14:17

got a

Brett: 1:14:17

piece as an equity or rev share? Again, it depends. It depends on your goals. Um, you never obviously want to put yourself in a position that you're like, yeah, it's probably good today. And then two years later, like, whoa, what did I do? Um, yeah. So you could do percent, percent of the whole thing each year. Yeah. I think it's important in those structures that just always everyone's do it. Like if you're not a part of it, like, like you get the equity, you built all this, you have the asset for others. It's, uh, they got to keep bringing it. Yeah, you know, okay. Uh, yeah, got it.

Keaton: 1:14:53

Um, so any final words of operational advice to agency owners? Yeah,

Brett: 1:15:01

um, Look, man, like a there is a reason there is a reason Generals on battlefields back in the day were in a tent and they'd lay out a map like something visual There's a reason engineers have blueprints before they start building And they have window guy, and paint guy, and foundation guy, right? Um, there's a reason a quarterback has a playbook before, and they don't just say, go do whatever you're going to do. Um, they coordinate and align to something first before they go. And what's interesting about that blueprint, it's not a bunch of mathematics, it's not a click up words that you can't even read without like taking for, you know, it's like, it's visuals. Um, and this is the obsession I had. Have you heard of Benoit Mandelbrot? Yeah. Yeah, I don't think many people have, so this is kind of the geek mode, but, um, basically as a kid, he was a, a, a mathematician back in the 80s, or I think maybe he died in the 80s. Anyway, he came up with some cool stuff. Mm hmm. Um, fractals, all that kind of thing. Oh, wow. Yeah, he, he basically, instead of looking at equations, in his head as a kid, he would turn them into shapes, and then he would solve it with, like, visual shapes. And his whole thing is like X ray, you know, visual, you need the data. Um, I don't see enough business centers using actual visuals and laying things out to align their team and get to a result. And to me, that creates a lot of misalignment. A lot of people make mistakes and who's the one that pays, right? At the end of the day, it's always that agency owner. So time and time again, it's that, and it's as simple as just saying, you know, so I think that's kind of what I found. Um, And, um, yeah, operational advice, I think, uh, as long as you have a process that is clear and people that are accountable to it, um, yeah, you can get pretty far. Cool. Would

Keaton: 1:16:47

you say like vision and culture play into that? Because it doesn't, you haven't brought that up yet, but you've alluded to don't keep things from your employees, which I think is, I am guilty of, but not because I'm, it's more out of laziness than like, Oh, I don't want them to know this, you know, like I just want them to, I don't want to distract them or whatever. How does vision and values play into that? Um, play into, um, this process and what do you, like, how do you avoid just talking to them all day and, but still making sure that they're getting what they need to and having the full context so that they can act without you? Mm hmm.

Brett: 1:17:35

Yeah. Well, again, like everything we, it's multi layered, right?

Keaton: 1:17:40

Mm hmm.

Brett: 1:17:40

Um. Mm hmm. One thing that's very helpful in most companies I go into is just really nailing their daily meeting structures, right? Everything in that meeting, like, uh, for this company. You know, we do a daily 30 minutes, everything needs to be there, right? You should not have to contact me, the entrepreneur, anybody after that because you should come prepared. Right? So that daily structure, a lot of people that want to live that lifestyle, they're like, well, I'm just, I'm not gonna, you know, I'm, I'm good. But by doing that 30, you actually relieve yourself of so much more time. And obviously. Yeah. So I would say that's the first part that, um, You know, adjusting then in those meetings, a lot of things come out. No, no, no. It's not this way. It's that way. Like, you know, if you hit a golf ball off one degree at the point of contact, it actually goes like way off course. Yeah. So it's kind of the same thing. You, you avoid those misalignments. Um, and then, yeah, as far as vision, it can, oh, sorry, yeah, we're close here, very close, getting closer. Uh, on the vision part, like every entrepreneur knows their vision and they don't, they kind of think they know it, but they don't. So drilling it out of them, it always is like pounding down. Um, so the best you can do, in my opinion, which is also good and important, it's like Trying to define Northwest or North, right? And if everyone moves North or Northwest, you can always kind of kick it West or North. So it's keeping the vision vague, but you have to lay out a vision. This is where we're at. This is where we're going. And then you, then you kind of make your moves along the way. So that is important. That is the, that is the owner's thing, right? That is a fun part that I like to do. I have like a workshop model kind of based on EOS, my own vision where it's like, all right, tell me everything. Let's make a vision, put it on a board. Um, those are always enjoyable. But yeah, the team's nothing yet. And honestly, the team doesn't even really care. They just need to know it and they need to know it like seven times. And then they'll start making decisions towards that direction. Um, and I'm just kind of checking these off the list. The last one you mentioned was culture. I'm a believer you can't really create culture, like culture is more riding a wave on your surfboard than it is saying, wave, do this thing. So the people that come in, how they come back, their backgrounds, how they react to questions, how they communicate, all those factors, you kind of have to write it. So for me, it's like, Um, when I build teams, one of my favorite things to do, I was a quarterback, so I knew you have that playbook and, um, and yeah, man, I love just seeing like, okay, that guy's a lot more assertive. This person's this, okay, let's make them do a presentation, make it fun. Okay. Now everybody's kind of more bought in. Let's level up that way. Um, so, so yeah, that's what I think. I know other people have thoughts. Nice.

Keaton: 1:20:12

Um, and as far as like, uh, just a hack or maybe an exercise that someone could do on their own. Uh, after listening to this to unlock the next couple levels of growth.

Brett: 1:20:25

Oh, yeah. Great. Um, let's go back to the org chart. Yeah. So, like, I do have a course. I'm going to retouch it up as I've been telling you, like, I'll get there, like, these twins are getting older. Um, so, so I have a lot, I'll, I'll, I'll give everything, you know, give it away. And there's a lot of that. Um, but go into the org chart. Here's a real simple one. Um, so if you like my structure and you write in, you know, make a box, just, just do it on paper. Um, and at the top, write CEO, write your name, go to COO, because operations is a little different than all the, all the CEO stuff. You're probably writing your name in there depending on your agency size. Maybe you have someone there. Um, so write your name in, then write marketing, uh, sales, fulfillment, admin. And I want you to write in the name of the person who is truly responsible, that if you were not involved, who actually is responsible for the results, that if the results don't get done, they get fired, right? Um, And a lot of you, you might just be like, I think it's Mary, but actually like, Oh, it's actually me. Right. Like I've done this. And a lot of times you're like, shit, I'm actually responsible. And then you continue that. Right. If you're doing only Google ads. Well, who in marketing is responsible for executing those? Maybe I have Facebook ads too. Who's responsible. Um, and that's the point. And then from that, I see a lot of growth of people that, that, that then know who they need to hire or what SOPs they need to dump out of their head. Yeah. In order to make it so that they can do the surgery or bring some, you know, and that totally lightens the load a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. But that's one of them. That's great.

Keaton: 1:21:57

Cool. Um, well, for those who want to see it, the rest of what's in the bag, uh, you can reach out to Brad

Brett: 1:22:04

on Facebook. Yeah. Facebook's great. Yeah. Um, yeah. And I'm, I'm looking forward to getting out and speaking again and, uh, Keaton, I really appreciate you. And it's, it's been great. Uh, short but fun journey and, uh, just, just, uh, letting me come back and kind of get out of my head, um, with some of these things.

Keaton: 1:22:21

Yeah. So if you want Brett to speak, uh, or if you want him to work with your team. Reach out to him on Facebook. We'll have the link below and, um, yeah. Anything else you want to say?

Brett: 1:22:33

I keep fighting. It ain't easy, right? But you know what, you started this. Uh, so, so, you know, go live your dream. That's, that's why it is. Uh, yeah. Love it. Cool. Thanks man. Thank you.